"Talking"

http://talkingx.blogspot.com

It's nighttime. I'm in a diner and sitting at the counter. Someone, I never met before, enters the diner, walks over and sits down next to me.

ME: "Hello."

BRENDA: She smiles."Hello,I'm Brenda."

ME: "Okay. I'm Richard. I've been talking to people for hours. What have you been doing?"

BRENDA: "Well, it's been one crazy day, and I'm glad to finally be sitting down. I'm working desperately to help my sister get her kids back from her abusive husband, but his religion is powerful and he has formidable lawyers."

ME: "That sounds awful. What kind of religious belief does he have?"

A server comes over. Brenda orders a coffee. The server pours it and leaves.

BRENDA: "He's part of a fundamentalist polygamist cult. She had escaped with her kids, but he has them now and, with the church's help, is keeping them hidden from her. It's a long story, but hopefully one with a happy ending."

me; "I wouldn't count on a happy ending. We live in a really sick world."

BRENDA: "I hate to have to agree with you, but judging by how things have gone so far, you're probably right. We do live in a sick world - and this cult takes sick to a whole new level."

ME: "Why did she ever marry anyone like that? Your sister has some problems too."

BRENDA: "She, well both of us, were born into it. It wasn't a matter of her choice. All marriages are assigned, and hers was truly a marriage forced against her will. There are many others in the same situation. Luckily, I was able to escape with my husband and kids. She wasn't so lucky."

She pauses for a moment.

"Well, here I go rattling on. I haven't given you a chance to speak! So, you've been here talking to people? I find people so fascinating, I'll bet you've met some interesting ones?"

ME" "I have. There's this girl that always knows when I order fries. I don't know how she does that. She isn't in the diner when I order but after I get them she comes in and asks me for them. She always says the same thing: 'You gonna finish those fries?' I give them to her. Then she crams them in her mouth, with both hands, gets up and leaves. It's really weird. She never says anything except: 'You gonna finish those fries?'"

BRENDA: "Some kind of freaky fry psychic, huh? I have found people watching to be quite an interesting pastime. I like to imagine what their lives are like, but I'm usually not very good at starting conversation."

ME: "Oh, sure. I'm not either"

BRENDA: "I know it doesn't seem like it, but I really do struggle to make small talk with strangers - usually. For some reason you were easy to talk to today. Maybe it's the stress, maybe it's the keen remembrance of the isolated life I used to live that compelled me to open up. You probably get that a lot though."

ME: "When did you escape from the polygamists?"

BRENDA: "Three years ago. But unfortunately most of my family are still there."

ME; "How do they hold people? Can't you just walk away if you want to?"

BRENDA: "For most people, they don't physically hold you there, it's a matter of mind control through fear of God and damnation. They very effectively train your thought processes so that you keep yourself from leaving. Coming to the realization that they only had as much power as I gave them is what finally broke the spell for me, but even then it wasn't easy to actually leave."

ME: "God doesn't exist. I have no idea how anyone can possibly believe he does. By what route of convoluted thinking could someone find Him? No one's ever seen Him. So how can people believe? Where do they go, in their mind, to do that?"

BRENDA: "Oh, don't worry! I couldn't agree with you more, I was brainwashed. Yet now it's so easy to see through the lies. Sometimes I look back at my life and can hardly believe it wasn't all just a horrible dream."

"My newfound freedom has motivated me to go to college and study law, I want to do something to change things for the better. I figure "better late than never."

ME: "Good. Do you remember anything about brainwashing?"

BREND: "Absolutely! Forty years of indoctrination tends to leave an impression. I don't suppose it's a lot different than any religious beliefs, except taken to the extreme."

ME: "How does it wotk? I was raised a Catholic but I don't remember anything people said about it. When I was 13 I stopped believing in God. My parents continued to make me go to Church. I couldn't say 'No.' They would have put me in a Juvenile Detention Center. My parents divorced when I was 16. I told my mother I was through with church. How could you believe for so many years? Did people, in some way, force you to believe?"

BRENDA: "One thing they do is teach you that any association with those outside the church group is a sin. They forbid movies, television, music, and outside books - you're taught that they are evil. The most powerful tool they use is peer pressure. Everyone you know is following the same beliefs, they encourage reporting other people's "sins," and they appeal to pride by teaching that "we are God's chosen." When you're isolated from real knowledge, fearful of the "wicked" outsiders, and preparing for the apocalypse with several thousand close friends, it's easier to fit in than to risk being exiled. After all, "what if" they're right? Isn't eternal exaltation worth a little sacrifice?"

"It's all that I knew all of my life. We had church school, meetings, projects, and the only people we associated with were fellow members. Total immersion - we didn't know to question, at least not when we were young. I know it seems crazy - almost impossible - but for too many, it's all too real."

ME: "Yeah, that sounds rough. What's 'eternal exaltation?' I have some interest in a cheeseburger but none at all in 'eternal exaltation.'"

"I'm going to get a cheeseburger. Do you want something to eat? But don't forget about 'eternal exaltation.' I want to get back to it."

I wave a server over.

BRENDA: "Thanks for the offer, but all this religion talk made me lose my appetite. I would love a Coke, though."

I give the order to the server. She leaves, returns with 2 cokes and leaves again.

ME: "It didn't make me lose my appetite. What's 'eternal
exaltation?'

BRENDA: "Ah, it's being perfect, worthy to live with God. But it's a lot better scenario for men than it is for the women: men become gods and have thousands of wives. Through them millions of children are born - but only as spirits. They have to be born into a body on an earth and be tested and tried and proven worthy. As a god, you produce enough offspring to populate worlds, then create a world where mortals will live, and populate it with your spirit children."

"Naturally you live forever. Your few children that prove worthy become gods under you and bump you up. Those unworthy get varying degrees of happiness and are destined to be slaves to the gods for a millennia. It can be really hard, as an adult woman, to get very excited about your prospects, as you might imagine."

ME: "Well, that's just really incredible. You remember so much more about this subject than I do. The subject is called a Catechism. Do you know any more of it?"

BRENDA:: "I could fill books with all the brainwashing I remember. I could practically compete with Warren Jeffs himself on quoting scriptures and giving revelations! I'm just glad for the last few years, while I've finally been able to start replacing some of that stuff with something more useful and interesting!"

ME: "Poor kid. You've really been through the wringer. How do you get to 'be perfect?'"

BRENDA: "Complete, unquestioning obedience to the church leadership. "Rejoicing" in living polygamy. Giving all your money, time, devotion and labor to the church. Following the Book of Mormon, Bible and words of all the "prophets." Basically you give up your whole life, identity and individuality to become a cog in a machine."

"It's a lot better deal for men, but even for most of them it's not a nice life."

ME; "Yeah. I don't understand how
they could do this to people without threats. Did they tell you you were 'Crazy' if you couldn't see 'Jesus' and you should be in the 'Nut House?'"

The server returns with my cheeseburger and leaves again.

BRENDA: "No, not really. It was a lot more subtle and manipulative than that. It was being told that asking questions, hesitating to 'obey,' feeling sad, depressed, worried - anything but energetic, willing and happy - meant you weren't praying hard enough, not humble enough, somewhere you must have sinned. It is a serious guilt trip."

ME: "Yeah. Were your patents Mormons?"

BRENDA: "My dad grew up Mormon, my mom joined the Mormons when she married him. Then, the year I was born, they joined a fundamentalist Mormon group that practices polygamy."

ME; "So, when you were born, they were living in a commune?"

Brenda: "No. We grew up in normal neighborhoods, though we weren't allowed to play with neighbors, we were home-schooled, we dressed like we were right out of Little House on the Prairie."

ME: "Did that change later on?"

BRENDA: "It got a lot more strict. We were required to stay more isolated. There was a part of the group in the city, and a small city belonging to the church in a remote desert area. After I was grown and married a call was made that all the city properties be sold and everyone move to the desert community. It was a lot more isolated from the outside world and we were strongly encouraged to leave as little as possible. This move stripped even more of our already limited freedoms away."

ME: "What happened then?"

BRENDA: "Over the next few years families started being torn apart, people kicked out for supposed "sins," and then they started the United Order. You had to be determined worthy by the leadership. Confessions were called for, strict rules about associating within the church - between those who were worthy and those who weren't. This was the 'straw that broke the camel's back' so to speak for me. I had dealt with more than I should have already and there was no way I would hand any of my kids over to the church!"

"To make a really long story short, we secretly made plans and escaped through the dark hours of night. It hasn't been an easy road, but it sure has been worth it."

ME: "How many years did you spend there?"

BRENDA: "The first 40 years of my life. Sometimes I feel so betrayed, I feel as though my life was stolen from me. But I'm determined to make up for it now, and hopefully make a difference for others. I'm sure it's all hard to imagine, having not actually lived through it. But I assure you, it's a living hell if ever one existed."

ME: "What did you do when you got out?"

BRENDA: "Well, to be honest, kinda freaked out for a while. Nearly everyone and everything that had been part of my entire life was gone. We were so alone, in debt, and still too close to the community for comfort. But we slowly found our wings: watching Netflix marathon-style - shows we had never seen, (sometimes, on the weekends, watching several seasons at once), adjusting to 'free' time without endless meetings and projects, very slowly braving out into a foreign world, and changing our hair and clothing styles....you know, it took me a whole year before I dared wear pants!

She stopped talking and a half nostalgic/half sad look came over her face.

"It almost seems surreal that those memories are really my life."

ME: "I suppose so. Who was with you?"

BRENDA: "My husband and our kids. That was it. We went from 1,000s of family and friends to eight of us. Those were pretty lonely times."

"I guess I never told you, but those who were faithful followers had been forbidden to talk to those who left. We were all taught to treat them as though they were dead - but that they would have been better off to be dead than to turn against God. By the act of moving away, we had instantly sealed our fate as "traitors to god" in the eyes of the church."

ME: "You have six kids?"

BRENDA: "Yes. Actually a small number for someone in that group. My mom had 10, but I couldn't match that. I'm really glad now, 6 is a lot."

ME: "Oh sure. six are plenty. Are you still married?"

BRENDA: "I am, going on 23 years."

ME: "That's pretty impressive. At what point did you decide to be 'Godless?'"

BRENDA: "Once the reality settled in that everything I had believed to be true was a lie; that the men I trusted most were perverted and had betrayed my trust; and especially that even though I had been an extremely prayerful, honest and hard-working person "god" couldn't be bothered to answer my prayers for help. Then it all just came crumbling down around me and I finally felt free. Greatest feeling ever."

MR: "What did you say to your husband and kids about the "New You?'"

BRENDA: "We're all "new" people, and we've kind of changed together. I am definitely a different person, but so are they. Better for sure, but different."

ME: "What are you doing now?"

BRENDA: "In the church, education isn't seen as important. College is out of the question - especially for women. A few have been allowed to go into nursing, but that's all. I always dreamed of going to college, and now I can. I took a college course in the humanities and one of my professors suggested I would do well in studying law. My hope is to do something to help people, protect human rights and innocent victims of abuse, and such. Most lawyers don't know how to approach these cults, they don't know the questions to ask - I'd like to help change that."

ME: "What's different about your approach?"

BRENDA: "I think I have a different perspective. I know the way the leaders skirt issues and avoid giving real answers. I know that very few women would chose to live in polygamy if they weren't afraid of going to hell."

"I think there needs to be a different approach to talking to those who are victims - or suspected victims. The brainwashing goes so deep. I honestly don't care what consenting adults chose to do in their bedrooms, but it has to truly be consenting adults. Not women who live in fear and have been told all of their lives that they had to live polygamy, or else. Not 12 year-old girls marrying men old enough to be their grandfather. The threats are real, and these people won't tell the truth, they tell what the church has conditioned them to say."

"I would help them understand that these secretive, religious societies are breeding grounds for abuse, neglect, coercion and cruelty, not to mention tax evasion and welfare fraud."

"I just get so tired of nothing being done to prosecute the crimes that happens on a daily basis. There are so many laws being broken, so many people hurt, and something needs to be done."

ME: "Most people don't care and never will. They're really so stupid they don't even know what you're talking about. I do, but I'm just one person. The lawyers don't care either. They're charging people $370 an hour and that's the source of their concern. Hollywood/TV give people causes they know will never be realized. They're raking in the bucks. Hope makes a good story."

BRENDA: "Unfortunately, I think you're right. But, just like most people don't care, most lawyers are scum, at least there are a few people like me, you and several other amazing people I'm proud to call my friends, who DO care. I won't stop caring or working to make a difference. My belief is that the few CAN change things against the many - it's certainly not easy, but we can't just give up. I'm going to prove that a lawyer can be a good, caring person, too.

"You seem to be a very intelligent man, who talks to a lot of people, and I'm sure they come from different backgrounds and different walks of life - so, what are your thoughts on the best way to help people? How can I help people understand and care? I know I won't change the masses, but each person who cares is a power towards good."

ME: "You're doing okay without my help. Good Luck."

BRENDA: "Thank you for that vote of confidence. I'm probably going to need all the support I can get It was great to just have you hear me out."

ME: "Sure. I'm interested in your story. Thanks. Are you presently in college?"

BRENDA: "I start classes next month. I have 8 credits from my humanities class that I'm transferring, so I hope to be able to push hard and get my associates degree, then carry on to my Bachelor's. It's a big task to make it all happen, but I'm determined to do it."

ME: "What do you think I do for a living?"

BRENDA: "Honestly? I have no clue. You seem very professional and intelligent, but I won't embarrass myself by venturing a guess. What do you do

ME: "I'm a furniture mover. I go to a furniture warehouse in Brooklyn and catch trucks. Then I carry furniture all day long. I make $100 a day."

BRENDA: "Well, that's more money than I make in a day. But, coming from good ole Utah, those dollars probably go further. Now your turn, what do you think I do for a living now?"

ME: "I don't know. What do you do?"

BRENDA: "I do gardening. I used to love gardening, but when it's a 9-5, everyday job, it starts to lose its charm."

ME: "How do you manage college?"

Brenda: "It's not going to he easy. I'll have to change my schedule. Last winter I worked as a tailor/seamstress. That's a lot more flexible and if I find the right position I can make more money too."

MR:"Yeah."

BRENDA: "I know I'll be crazy busy, but I hope it will make my life better. I'm tired oF living out of the bottom of the barrel."

ME: "I'm hungry. I'm going to get a steak. Do you want something to eat?"

BRENDA: "Sure, I'm pretty hungry. What do you suggest? Any little-known treasures served here?"

ME: "Nothing comes to mind. Get anything you want."

BRENDA: "I'll have a chef salad, and another Coke, please. Thanks.

"So, do you enjoy your work, or do you dream of doing something else, like I do?"

ME: "I once dreamt of being a computer type. Someone, in a computer store, that repairs computers. But, as time went by, I realized they did it better than I would. That was my very last dream."

I wave a server over and give her the order. She retrieves 2 cokes and leaves.

BRENDA: "I see. I guess after so many years of being held down I'm chock full of dreams! They're about all I've got, so I'm not ready to let go just yet. I'm determined to make at least a few of them come true - or at least have fun trying."

ME: "Yeah. Dreams are nice. Do you dream of creating your own fashions?"

BRENDA: "I actually do! I've seen some fine workmanship on costumes from the opera and ballet and would love to try working in costuming for a while. I'd also like to try my hand at real fashion design - you know, not just polygamy dresses. I love figuring out patterns and bringing ideas to reality."
.

ME: "Do you sketch your ideas?"

The server returns with my house salad and leaves.

BRENDA: "Yes, sometimes I sketch things, I draw plans for things on graph paper. I'd love to take a drawing class some day so my sketches will make more sense."

ME: "Maybe you have a future in fashions or sewing."

BRENDA: "I could go for that. I think it could be an exciting career. I'm already a top-notch seamstress/tailor."

ME: "Yeah? Why don't you do that instead of gardening?"

BRENDA: "Gardening this season was actually a favor to a good friend - but it's not working out very well for me this year. I'm looking into a sewing job, it would be more flexible and not seasonal. I've done it before. Hopefully I can get something lined up soon."

ME: "Do you work with your friend?"

BREDA: " Yes, well, sometimes. I'm a crew boss and so is she, so we end up split up more often than not. That wasn't what we planned."

ME: "Oh. Well, it's a job."

The server returns with Brendas' Chef salad and my Steak diner.

BRENDA: "True. Work isn't supposed to be "fun" I guess. Hopefully I can get better work soon."

ME: "Yeah. Working on furniture trucks is the best I can get."

BRENDA: "I don't mind physical work, at least it makes me tired enough to sleep good at night."

ME: "You know, no one ever says if we hadn't of kicked the Commies out OF Afghanistan we wouldn't have had to go to war there. Did you ever think of that?"

BRENDA: "Honestly? No. I knew so little of world events, politics, real history - having grown up isolated inside a cult - I'm only now starting to learn about this world. I have a friend who was in the Marines, and he has told me what it was like going to Iraq. It's an ugly side of life.

"What's your opinion of it? I wouldn't mind learning a thing or two."

ME "After Afghanistan they went to war in Iraq and toppled Saddam Hussein. He had the nut religious types under control. Then they did the same thing in Libya where they toppled Gaddafi. It makes you wonder about the intellectual power of our Leadership."

BRENDA: "Too bad we don't take care of our own religious nut jobs. We'd be a lot better off."

ME: "Yeah. But my point is: What could the government be thinking of?"

BRENDA: "Now that's a question I've grappled with a LOT. The only conclusions I've reached were that the government doesn't mind religion keeping people controlled so they look away; the government doesn't want to have to deal with the costs of caring for thousands of women and children (in the case of polygamous cults) and let the sleeping dog lie, so to speak; and/or there's too many religious government leaders who don't want to set a precedent in actually doing something against extremist religions for fear that their own near and dear may come next."
"Until our society stops letting so-called religious freedom
triumph over human rights, nothing will really change."

ME: "If they hadn't of toppled those regimes in the first place, then they wouldn't have had to go back and fight a war."

BRENDA: "Ah, yes, I understand. And I agree. We often stick our noses into other people's business, where we don't really belong. It usually has more to do with our financial interests than moral standards. I think we should clean our own closets before we go around criticizing other people for their messes."

ME: "And now we're in all these wars. Couldn't the Leadership have predicted this? You would think so. I would know that. Wouldn't you?"

BRENDA: "But war is profitable. It's good business for some. And the leaders aren't concerned about the safety of the minions - we're disposable."

ME: "Yeah, that's us, The Disposables."

BRENDA: "Sad, but true. It was the same within the FLDS."

ME: "That's life. How's your salad?"

BRENDA: "Great. My salad is to help balance out my Coke, you know. I always try to eat healthy, but I've had a hard time giving up my Coke - it's my vice."

ME: "I don't pay any attention to diet stuff. I just eat whatever I feel like. What was that you were saying about freedom of religion versus basic human rights? That was interesting."

BRENDA: "I was referring to the abuses that happen so often in religion - especially the more secretive groups - like what I came from. To begin with, polygamy is illegal. It has been for over 150 years; it's a felony offense. But almost nothing is done to prosecute those who are known polygamists. Now we have tv shows that depict a polygamist lifestyle as something almost admirable. Or so I've heard, I can't stand to watch them.

"These polygamous groups are well-known for a variety of crimes, polygamy pretty much goes hand-in-hand with incest, molestation, underage marriage, shunned boys, welfare fraud, tax evasion and abuse of every name and nature. There are many who have broken free from the emotional chains that once held them in these cults, who are telling their experiences and they're all pretty much the same. Yet, often, when the question is asked as to why the government turns a blind eye and a deaf ear to these cries for help and protection of innocence, the response is that they don't want to go against anyone's rights of religious freedom. What about an individual's human rights? Religious rights can't include crimes against innocent people.

"Religious brainwashing works! I have witnessed scores of miserable lives, women and children in abusive situations where they believe they're 'happy.' I did. For a long time I remember thinking, 'This is how I choose to live, why won't people leave us alone?' But now I see. I never chose to live that lifestyle, thanks to a lifetime of indoctrination I truly believed it was my only choice - with the one exception of being damned in hell for eternity. That's no choice! As I started to comprehend what my life had been compared to what I believed it was - it was devastating. I felt so betrayed! I had lost the best years of my life to a lie, told by vile, immoral men.

"I am determined to make a difference, to change things for others. It's not an easy task, but I know there's a way for it to happen."

ME:: "Talking about abuse: the Drug War is abusive. What are your thoughts on that?"

Brenda: "I say legalize drugs and then regulate them. Like what they're doing with marijuana in Colorado. You can absolutely still charge people for DUIs and such. That eliminates the black markets, the drug deals gone wrong, the questionable properties of synthetic drugs sold on the streets, and they can tax the sale of them and, ideally, use some of that revenue for education about drug use and maybe even fund help programs.

"I don't see it as being much different than cigarettes and alcohol. And plenty of people get addicted to opiates through prescription drug use. It's a very similar situation to prohibition nearly a hundred years ago: making it illegal doesn't eliminate it. The demand is still there, and criminals are more than happy to take the opportunity to make a fortune on the black market. Having laws, rules and regulations can help prevent worse problems.
"I say we need fewer laws, so law-abiding people have their freedoms, but then take a much more low-tolerance approach to those who break the law. It's not the severity of the punishment but the surety of the punishment that makes a change in people's behavior."

ME: "laws are always a really bad idea. The problem is sometimes there not. Where do you draw the line? Sentences are way to long. Then again, there are some really ugly types you just have to get rid of."

BRENDA:: "There has to be some laws - mostly to protect the innocent. I think the entire justice system needs a reevaluation and punishment needs to be more proportionate to the crime. If you get caught pirating software, or movies, for example, you'll likely get a stiffer sentence than most murderers. Yet, the harm was incomparable. In one example someone had their life stolen from them, in the other, someone lost a little piece of their huge profits. Those who hold the purse strings of the nation have too much influence in the laws and not enough accountability. Some proof of that is the phrase: 'I hope you can afford a good lawyer,' which implies, (and accurately in my opinion,) that justice is bought and sold. She is no longer blind."

ME: "Nothing can be changed because of the conservatives."

Brenda: "Probably not now anyway. I did listen to an encouraging report on public radio that said that a study showed that the biggest shift in religion is people leaving religion. According to this study in excess of 600,000 people a year. And most of those no longer believe in God. At that rate it may not be too long before changes for the better can come. I'm hoping so."

ME: "Yeah, okay. I'd like you to help me with my 'moron meter.' I want to put 'wrestling fans' at number 10, the very stupidest. What do you think of that?"

BRENDA: "I couldn't agree more! Along with people who read the tabloids as if it was news!"

ME: "Yeah. Who goes in the 9th spot?"

BRENDA: "I know this will offend a lot of people, but I have to say those who choose to join a religion. It's one thing to be indoctrinated from birth, but to choose it as an adult? I don't get it."

ME: "What if I put sports in 8th place? What do you think of that?"

BRENDA: "I could agree with that! And the lot lizards at used car lots. Or maybe the people that get duped by them."

ME: "And Republicans. What do you think?"

BRENDA: "Yes! Especially the super-conservative ones who want abstinence only sex education, (which we all know doesn't work), denying people the power of knowledge of how their own bodies work so they could at least make better decisions, then deny any form of birth control, condemn abortions and then cut spending for single moms, welfare, etc. They're creating the problem. They aren't 'pro-life' they're pro-birth and then blame women for their bad choices. A special kind of stupid if you ask me."

ME: "Do you do any political activism?"

Brenda: "I haven't, but I admit I've wondered about it. I need a way to learn more about how the political process works, because whatever I do I want to have it be the most effective approach. Politics has been such a foreign idea to me so far in my life. I have only voted once: the church leaders instructed us to vote and who to vote for or against. I do want to understand and ask questions and get involved though, I'm just unsure where to start.
"It probably won't surprise you too much to hear that I have some trust issues, and politicians don't have much of a reputation for being trustworthy."

ME "It all looks so hopeless. I can't believe anything will ever change for the better."

Brenda: "I have to say, that has pretty much been my view of it. Like deciding between Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum. But then I figured that as long as people don't act for sure things will change for the worse. If enough people fight for a change then there might be hope. I know my hopes may not be realized, but if I can make even a small change, or help even a few people understand why things need to change, then I'd sure like to."

ME: "There's really no one to talk to, about anything that's really relevant. because they're all insane. I think it would be a good thing for you to accept that we're living in a Giant Lunatic Asylum."

Brenda: "I finally escaped one crazy farm just to find out the whole world is a crazy farm - I had so hoped it would be different."

ME: "Oh, sure. They got you coming and going."

BRENDA: "Well, if I wasn't burned out on feeling hopeless, I might give up now, but I have to try. Crazy? Yes, I know."

ME: "What are you trying to do?, Oh, I remember now. You're looking for people to help you accomplish something. What are you trying to accomplish? Whatever it is, it's impossible. You can never change anything. No one even knows what you're talking about. They don't understand change."

BRENDA: "Tell you what: I'll check back with you in a few years and either you'll have to change your opinion or you can tell me 'I told you so!' "

ME: "Okay. That's a deal."

Brenda: "And now I have more motivation to succeed. So then I'm curious. Obviously you have no faith in the political system, where do you see things headed over the next, say, five years?"

ME: "We'll be where we are right now. They can never change anything."

BRENDA: "But things have changed over the years - some for the better, some for the worse. Don't you think there's a chance that if enough people cared and tried that we could bring some positive change?"

ME: "But you can't find anyone that cares. Who have you found?"

BRENDA: "Mostly other ex-polygamist women, really. We finally got free and want to have freedom and peace in our 'new' world. We don't want people to have to keep suffering through these miserable experiences."

ME: "Well, maybe you could do something there. But you can't change anything else."

BRENDA: "It's a great place to start!"

ME: "How much have you accomplished? How many people have you saved? How many people are in your organization?"

Brenda: "So far I've saved eight. And I've helped dozens understand the freedom that's theirs for the taking. That they don't have to live in fear and guilt any longer. I'm not in any group or organization - yet. I may start one though."

ME: "That's certainly impressive but you wont be changing anything else because people can't change. They do everything the way they've always done it. They're conformists, you can't change them."

Brenda: "You know you're kind of a kill joy. Then what are your ambitions? Do you have hopes? I probably sound naive and simple to you - with my hopes."

ME: "I know perfectly well it's hopeless to try to change peoples thinking."

BRENDA: "I changed mine. Maybe I have super powers."

ME: "You're a rarity. Maybe you do have super powers and should wear a Wonder Woman costume."

Brenda: "I think I do have super powers. Maybe I'm really a witch!"

ME: "I don't believe in witches."

BRENDA: "Ah, that was going to be my next question. No magic either, then?"

ME: "What did you do when you saved those people from the Polies?"

Brenda: "Well, 7 of them were my family who I convinced to leave the church with me, and one was my daughter's friend. We gave her a home with us so she could get out and not be on her own - we were her family, and gave her support and stability."

ME: "It's like a spy story."

BRENDA: "It's strikingly similar to escaping from the mafia."

The server comes over and collects our plates.

ME: "What was it like to convince your family to leave?"

BRENDA: "For the younger ones it wasn't too hard, they wanted to go wherever I went. The older ones were harder. You have a lifetime of indoctrination to contend with. It took a lot of talking, then a lot of secretive planning to have somewhere to go and a way to sustain ourselves. Those were awfully hard day's: I'm glad they're in the past."

ME: "Was this your idea or your husbands?"

BRENDA: "It was mine first. I couldn't bear to live in a community that was so abusive and wrong. I needed a safe place to raise our kids. But he agreed pretty quickly."

ME: "How come you never ask me any questions?"

BRENDA: "I'm sorry, I guess I'm too caught up in the craziness of my own life, and I came from a place where asking personal questions wasn't really acceptable, and I guess I'm still getting past that.
"So tell me more about yourself - I know what you do for work, but are you married? Do you have kids? What do you enjoy?"

ME "I'm not married and I don't have any kids. Mainly, I come here for something to do."

BRENDA: "Is that what you want in life, or are you hoping to find someone and make a family."

ME: "I don't want a family. I'm content to just come here, talk to people and do nothing. I don't want anything out of life except to be left alone. The world doesn't want me for anything either. They want stupid things. We're living on 'Planet Stupid.'"

BRENDA: "Do you feel like you enjoy experiencing life vicariously through others, so to speak? Kind of like how I love books, but you talk to people about their lives?"

ME: "I talk to people because I don't have anything else to do. I'm not living vicariously. I have no emotion about it at all, Did you get to read books when you were with the 'Polies?' I suppose they were pretty strict about that."

Brenda: " When I was younger I was allowed to read Nancy Drew books and Mormon themed story books, and of course scriptures and sermons.
"It sure seems like a lonely life - I want to live life to the fullest and I love people. Of course I also hate some people, too. But I definitely *feel*."

ME: "Talking to people about their life is very much like reading a book. And I find it interesting. But I wouldn't use the word 'vicarious' to describe what I'm doing. I hardly know what it means anyway. It's one of those 'big' words that no one can figure out."

"Who do you Hate?"

Brenda: "People who lie, manipulate, and take advantage of others, abusers, religious leaders.....
"Do you think I'm a liar? Or do you believe my story?"

ME: "I think you've been perfectly Honest"

BRENDA: "I'm glad, because I have been perfectly honest with you. And, I honestly don't know what it means either, but it's a phrase I've heard often. As I said it I realized that I didn't know what it even means. I guess I should look it up before I use it again."

ME: "It means living the life of someone else. Which, I suppose, you can do if you're even talking about someone else. You experience what they do. It's a word that's true but meaningless. It adds nothing to what's already been said."

Brenda: "See, I learn something new every day."

ME "Do you want to know anything else about me?"

BRENDA: "Did you grow up in religion? I don't remember if you already told me."

ME: "Some, both of my parents were church goers and made me go. When I was 13 I stoped believing but continued to go because they made me. When I was sixteen my parents divorced. I remained with my mother and stopped going. Both of them loved Jesus and Their Heavenly Father. They were pretty intense about it."

BRENDA: "Did they act like people who love Jesus and God should? Too often I find people who are intense about religion are intense, in bad ways, especially toward their kids. My dad certainly was."

ME: "Yeah. I recognize what your talking about. They used God as an excuse to be rotten to their children."

Brenda: "Exactly. And racism, hatred, attitudes of superiority - I see the same theme play out over and over."

ME: "People are a horrible mess."

BRENDA: "They really are."

ME "Do you grow your own vegetables?"

BRENDA: "I used to, and I want to again. I love growing my own food and preserving it - the best food ever!"
"Did you have brothers or sisters growing up?"

ME "One of each."

BRENDA: "Do they share in your opinions of God and religion, or are you an outcast in their lives? I have almost no family in my life because of my beliefs - or lack of beliefs, I should say."

ME: "Oh. You said you were still married. I don't think either one of them continued to believe in God. After I moved out I hardly ever saw them. As you said; 'I'm an outcast.'"

BRenda: "Yes, I am still married, with 6 kids to boot. But when you come from a family with 3 mothers and a couple dozen siblings, and a community of families like yours that are all you ever knew and then find yourself an outcast with just your immediate family, it can be pretty lonely.
"I must seem strange to you, but we have come from different worlds. You probably find me somewhat self-centered - talking on and on about my experience, but hardly knowing how to ask you about yours. I lost nearly 40 years in a black hole of religion, control and abuse. It's the only world I know. I'm now a castaway in a foreign land, trying to find my way. I can't talk to you about movies, music, culture or political parties; I simply can't 'remember when' about world events - except 9/11, I remember that. It happened at a pivotal moment in my life. You could probably spend hours filling me in on your life and what life is really all about."

ME: "It was a good story. How was 9/11 a pivotal moment in your life?"

BRENDA: "It was at a pivotal moment. After a lifetime of fear of 'the great destructions' coming to kill all the 'wicked' people, the pressure had been increasing - we were told the end was near and we all had to move out of the city before God destroyed it. On September 11, I awoke to my radio alarm clock and heard the news: a plane had hit one of the towers. I listened in horrified silence - wide awake now - as the morning unfolded. I wondered if it was a terrible accident? Then the second plane hit. I was terrified. I prayed that God wouldn't destroy the city before my family and I could get out. Those were truly terrifying days. For what? For control.
"Yeah, my life makes an interesting story to listen to, but it made a pretty crappy life."

ME: "Okay"

BRENDA: "Where were you when 9/11 happened?"

ME: "I was in a restaurant having breakfast. I heard the television and people talking excitedly.

So I finished breakfast, got up, went home and turned on the TV. That's when I heard 2 aircraft had plowed into the towers."

BRENDA: "Did your religion have apocalyptic teachings? What did you think when it happened?"

ME; "I was rased a Catholic but became a atheist at the age of 13. When I saw the building come

down I though a group of terrorists brought them down.I didn't think God was destroying the world."

BRENDA: "Consider yourself lucky. Do you live alone?"

ME: "Yeah."

BRENDA: "Sometimes I think that might be nice, but don't you ever get lonely? Don't you wish you had someone to share your life with?"

ME: "I think I'd rather live by myself. If you live with someone you have to talk about everything that's going on. I'd rather not."

Brenda: "True. I guess you can always invite people over when you want. Do you have an apartment or a house?"

ME: "An apartment. I come here when I want to see people."

BRENDA: "I can hardly imagine living alone. I could watch an entire movie without interruption. Sounds pretty nice, actually. Do you like to cook, do you just come here for the company?"

ME: "I cook occasionally, not so often. And just one thing for one meal. I cook, eat and clean up really quick."

Brenda: "I love to cook, but rarely have time any more. My spare time is usually absorbed in reading. Do you read much?"

MW: "Not anymore. I used to. Now I just work and come here. I suppose you never got to read when you were a 'Poly' Girl?"

Brenda: "Not much, at least not 'real' books. I love to read though, and books are an obsession for me. I don't have much time to read. But someday, when I do, I'll have plenty. I have hundreds of books of all kinds - mostly thrift store finds.
"For my literature class recently, I read 'To Kill a Mockingbird' for the first time. I LOVED it! What's your favorite book?"

ME: "I liked a lot of them but my very favorite is "Catch 22" by Joseph Heller. The Hero, of the book, tells people about his sensible ideas and then all of them tell him the same thing: 'It won't work because of Catch 22.' He's a pilot of a B 25, in WW2. He doesn't want to fly because it's dangerous, he could get killed."

Brenda: "My dad was obsessed with WWII and one thing we did do was go to air shows and watch old war movies. I'd probably like that one. Though I never wanted to be in the military. My dad was born in 1944 and was incredibly racist. That's something I'm glad to have gotten past in my life.
"Did you serve in the military?"

ME: "No, I didn't"

Brenda: "My daughter's friend left the church with us and lived with us for a year, then she joined the Army. She's serving overseas now. It's disgusting to me how the recruiters work. She seems to enjoy it, though.
"How about college? Did you attend any college?"

ME: "No. No college. l left High School as a Junior. I was never academically inclined. I was good in English and that's all. I was a Teachers Assistant in English."

BRENDA: "I graduated from the polygamous school - didn't do me much good, colleges won't accept it. I had to get my GED this summer. But now I'm ready!
"Have you travelled much? Not being tied down by family it seems like it would be easier."

ME: "No. I've never been outside of New York City. What are you going to Major in?"

BRENDA: " My Associates will be in psychology, then I plan to go to law school eventually. I had considered psychology for my total path, but I'm not sure I can deal with other people's trauma that much. I'm too much of an empath.
"I'm a little surprised to find out that I've traveled more than you - I figured everyone had traveled more than I have. At least you must know New York really well. Where are your most recommended spots to visit? This being my first time here."

ME: "I don't visit anything so I wouldn't know. I've walked across the Brooklyn Bridge several times. When I was younger I also wanted to study psychology. Later, I figured out people are ridiculous and don't wonder about them anymore. I'm a writer now. But just in a blog. I don't try to get published. Publishers are nice to people. They never tell them the truth."

BRENDA: "I know a lot of people who suffer with PTSD. I figure if we can mess people up, there's got to be a way to undo it - help them live normal lives. But I'm not sure I'm able to do it.
"Do you enjoy blogging? I set up several blog sites but that's as far as I got. Is it hard to get going?"

ME: "I got going really good, PTSD is such a fraud. There's nothing wrong wIth these people. They like to pretend there is so they can get sympathy."

Brenda: "Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Though I believe there are people who 'fake' it, there are many others for whom it's very real. I suffer from it to a degree - I'm fine most of the time, but I definitely have triggers. Long-term traumatic experiences absolutely leave their mark. The wrong circumstances trigger anxiety and make me terrified. It's my uncontrollable response, because of past trauma. But I believe there must be a way to undo those associations - I sure hope so, anyway.
"Have you ever personally known anyone who suffered from it?"

ME: "Maybe me."

BRENDA: "I have never used it for sympathy or attention - quite the opposite. I'd do anything to get past it and adjust to a normal life. No amount of sympathy could ever make up for the horrible experience of PTSD. The only people who would fake it are people who are too lazy to work or attention whores.
"Do you think there's a way to 'fix' it? How do you deal with it when anxiety attacks you?"

ME; "I doubt if there's anyway to fix it. My recollections aren't in a sequence."

BRENDA: "Okay, then here's a big question: Do you see any way to help people learn to deal with stress and trauma in a more positive way?"

ME: "You haven't given me anything specific. But if you did I would probably say 'I don't know what you're talking about, I'm not you."

BRENDA: "You don't have to be me. You don't have to have lived my life. As humans I believe we all share many of the same reactions to situations at least. We understand the feelings of fear, guilt and shame. My question is, in general: what can we do to help people learn to deal with these issues better? My opinion is that these issues are becoming more of a problem because our children aren't being nurtured; they don't feel safe and confident in their own skins. But how can I help affect a shift in attitudes among adults? I see adults treating children in the most horrid and demeaning ways - but how do I help people see the damage it is doing?"

ME: "You can't. That's what I'm telling you. They don't understand and never will. They're stupid. You can't give them a brain."

Brenda: "I'm not stupid. I have a brain - and I use it. So what makes me different? Why don't other people do the same? If what you say is true, then it really sucks to not be stupid. The level of stupidity I'm surrounded by actually hurts!"

ME: "Yeah. The 'stupids' run the show. If you're a 'stupid' 'The World is your Oyster.' They think everything's the way it's supposed to be. You can't tell them: 'It isn't.'"

BRENDA: "That's downright depressing. I'm going to have to find a different planet to live on.
Maybe there's a way for those of us with brains to find each other - like some kind of club?"

ME: "Okay. I'll join the club. What's the name of the Club?"

BRENDA: "I'll start one of my own, and call it the 'Don't be an Ignorant Asshole' club. We'll read literature and discuss ideas about how society could run more smoothly if people used their brains. And we'd eat excellent food.
"Do you think I will meet people who are intelligent and engaged in college? Not all, by any means, but maybe a few?"

ME: "I don't know. I like the name of the club. You picked a good one. We should exchange email addresses."

BRENDA: "Good idea. You'll get the first official email invitation to my club.
"Maybe I'll start a blog for it, too. I have a couple of blog pages started, (one for gardening, one for sewing, another for fighting for freedom from religious beliefs ) but haven't published any content. Is it hard to get started? Do you have many consistent readers?"

ME: "All I know is that I get hundreds of pageviews every day, The people never write me personally. I'll give you my email address and get yours."

Brenda: "Awesome. I have a lot of pictures from gardens I work in, and I thought I could post pictures and advice on cultivation, care, and so forth. My camera got broken and I just take pictures with my phone now, but it does ok. Do you like doing photography?"

I get out a notebook and pen and we exchange email addresses.

ME; "I used to, I don't anymore. Where did you go to get a blog? I'm on BlogSpot."

Brenda: "Through WordPress. I figured if nothing else I would reserve the page names I wanted. I did some online classes through Lynda.com that teach you how. I also did some classes on the Adobe Suite - you know, Photoshop, Illustrator - anyway, I worked on designing artwork for it. I really enjoy that kind of stuff. That's some powerful software, if I had a more powerful computer it would have been more fun.
"Another thing I started to learn online was Latin. I'd love to learn more - it's a lot easier than English - each letter makes a sound and their grammatical rules make more sense. Did you ever learn another language?"

ME; "Spanish in High School. I could write it but not speak it."

BRENDA: "I plan to take a Spanish class in college. Then I can communicate with the other half of the population at home. Or at least know what they're saying about me. Then, I'd like to learn Italian. Do you remember much Spanish?"

ME: "No. You could create a Facebook group too. And you could advertise there."

BRENDA: "That's a good idea, and easy to do. Did you advertise your blog to get it going?"

ME: "Yes, and continue to do so. That's how I get hundreds of pageviews every day. I belong to over 100 Facebook groups."

BRENDA: "Wow. I belong to quite a few groups, but not that many. Well, I have some ideas now to work from. Thanks.
"Do you do just the one blog, or do you have others?"

ME: "I have another one. It's about a Spaceship."

BRENDA: "That could be fun. Does it include alien species that you get to invent?"

ME: "No, It's about a power convertor that works in space. It's my own invention."

Brenda: "If only you could figure it out for real, you would never have to work again! Do you like science fiction?"

ME: "I did figure it out for real. No one cares."

BRENDA: "Why not?! It sounds like an amazing invention."

ME; "Because we're living in A Giant Lunatic Asylum."

Brenda: " Ah, yes. We already established that, huh? Well, maybe we can drum up support to launch it in my new group of intelligent people, You know, the 'Don't be an Ignorant Asshole' group. I've got to get that set up."

ME: "Okay, that's a deal."

BRENDA: "Tell me a little bit about this converter. How would you get it into space? How does it work - in general terms of course, I'm no rocket scientist!"

ME; "The power source is a nuclear engine that can run for years on the same fuel. So the speed and range of the aircraft is unlimited. Kind of. It will explode if it reaches the speed of light.

The power converter is a fluid filled disc with a propeller and baffles inside."

BRENDA: "Sounds impressive. And kind of 'Star Trek' like. I LOVE that kind of stuff. Technology, science, space....I definitely believe there are far better ways of doing things. I hope to see advances in technology in my lifetime - besides just in gaming and entertainment."

ME: "I don't play anything."

BRENDA: "Neither do I. My boys do, though. I don't have enough free time to even try it. I'd much rather spend time doing creative stuff. Do you have hobbies? I'm wanting to learn to paint and draw."

ME: "No. I haven't done that since I was a kid."

BRENDA: "I want to try a little bit of everything. I was accepted into a class on documentary film making and I'm excited to make a film. I plan to use this opportunity to bring awareness to the abuses in polygamy."

ME: "That's pretty neat. I can't capture what I want on film because it's all ideas, not something to look at. I'm very interested in the group you said you want to create. When will you get started on it? When you go home? A month from now?"

BRENDA: " Oh no, I won't wait that long. When I get home I'll definitely get going on it. I've got a lot of ideas chasing around in my little ole brain for it. I'll have to make a few notes and sketches when I'm back to my room.
"I totally understand what you mean about presenting ideas, or the difficulty of presenting them, anyway. But I hope I can get people's attention, grab them by their feelings and drag them through some of those experiences. Basically give them a more personal experience and connection so they'll be motivated to help make a change.
"You blog, so have you ever tried writing your ideas? I find I can put ideas and feelings into words on paper, so to speak, than verbally."

ME: "I have no trouble at all in presenting my ideas. When will you have something ready and shoot me an invite?"

BRENDA: "The sooner I get out of here I'm going to get started. Once I get ideas swirling around I'm always anxious to get them down somehow and work on developing them."

ME: "That's great. I look forward to it."

BRENDA: "I look forward to it too and I'll appreciate your input when I get it done, I really ought to get going soon. But it's been fascinating talking to you."

ME: "Yeah, same here."

Brenda: "Well, hey, I'm here for a few more days and I'll likely stop in here again for a bite. Maybe we'll chat again. Otherwise I'll definitely send you an email to my group as soon as it's up."

ME: "Okay."

BRENDA: "It was great meeting you, Richard. Hopefully we'll see each other again."

ME: "Nice to meet you too."

BRFNDA: "Alrighty, I've got a busy day tomorrow so I'm going to head out, goodnight, and thanks for a pleasant evening."

ME: "Same here. Good night."

She gets up and leaves.

It's nighttime. I'm back at the diner and the counter. Someone sits down next to me. I look up.

BRENDA: "Hi again."

ME: "Hi. I'm trying to write a comedy about people Loving Jesus."

I laugh a little.

"Do you have any comical ideas about that?"

BRENDA; "I find the subject funny in and of itself, personally - worshipping a zombie. But I'm what might be called a 'born again agnostic.' I had enough religion in my first 40 years to last several lifetimes."

ME; "An agnostic or atheist?"

A server comes over. Brenda orders coffee. The server pours it and leaves.

BRENDA; "I think agnostic, but I could probably go either way. I can see there's some power that makes things work, maybe just nature. I have seen and felt evil and good. I do know that God either doesn't exist or at least doesn't get involved in people's daily lives - he doesn't answer prayers."

ME: "I wish I could find something funny about religion. About people loving Jesus. Do you think that's funny?"

BRENDA: "It is funny, in a crazy way - funny that they'll devote their lives to loving Jesus while hating everyone who disagrees with them, starting wars, and alienating their own family members."

ME; "I have to find something funny about them.. Like them saying, Jesus is so beautiful, I love him so much, I want to be with Him and be loved by Him. What do you think they do that's funny? Really funny, laugh funny."

BRENDA: "The logic behind their worship is laughable: original sin was required, by god, then God cursed us because of it, then impregnated a young girl with himself as the offspring to then be sacrificed as a blood atonement for the sin he required in the first place. Circular logic at best. It always makes me laugh to see people all 'caught up in the spirit' praising Jesus when they find their lost car keys or some such trivial thing. Too bad his power isn't going toward ending hunger."

ME: "Yeah, but I'm not laughing. Give me something that makes me laugh. I can't think of anything."

BRENDA: "I personally don't find religion to be a laughing matter, it is the root of war, hatred and oppression. Though picturing Jesus in more modern, non-traditional roles and situations can be funny. Also, I believe that if Jesus lived today he would likely be treated very poorly by those who call themselves "Christian."

ME: "Okay. Stupid, crazy things are supposed to be humerus, aren't they? So why can't we laugh at them? You know."

BRENDA: "I think you can laugh at them, as long as you aren't worried about offending people."

ME: "I'm not. How would I laugh at them?"

BRENDA: "Bringing out the absurdity of worshipping a being and a book that have been revised and rewritten many times, and then cherry picking their own beliefs at that. They'll persecute gays and ignore adultery, for example."

ME: "I'm looking for something different and I'm having a hard time explaining that."

BRENDA; "Well, can you tell me something about what you're thinking, maybe we could brainstorm together. Sometimes it helps to just bounce ideas off someone else."

ME: "I guess. Something about the idiot agony they experience when they talk about Jesus and their Heavenly Father. I always laugh at them."

BRENDA: "No more effective than talking to a brick wall."

ME; "Yeah. We can't find anything funny. What do you do? Work, go to school, stay at home?"

BRENDA; "I'm currently in college - better late than never! And I also work. I have a part-time job doing fine gardening and one doing alterations and tailoring. I'm also dabbling in costume design."

ME; "What are you studying?"

BRENDA; "I'm majoring in psychology for my associates degree, but I'm mostly doing my general education requirements right now. I am in an introductory psychology class, and it's really fascinating.

"What do you do?"

ME; "I'm a truck helper, mainly on furniture vans. It pays good, $12 an hour."

BRENDA: "Nice. Sounds like too much hard physical work for me.

"Did you go to college?"

ME: "No. I didn't graduate High School. I wanted to study psychology too. I studied it on my own and discovered almost everyone is crazy. Go figure. We're living on The Planet of the Damned. It's not a pretty picture."

BRENDA: "Sadly, I'd have to agree. People are crazy."

ME: "But the media never says that. They're supposed to be reporting the news."

BRENDA: "Anyone with a fraction of a brain can see that the media is simply a tool used by the political powers. It carefully feeds us whatever is in the best interest of the powers that be. It turns us against each other, fills us with fear, and distracts us from the real issues and their solutions. It tells us how to feel, what to think on issues, and then fills our time with hollow entertainment that generally either serves to keep us busy dreaming about things we'll never accomplish, or feeling superior to those shown as less intelligent."

ME: "That's a good description of them. I know enough about them not to believe anything they say. They communicate to and for stupid people. And refer to their critics as "Ranters.'"

BRENDA: "I don't watch the news, or TV at all. I look into the things I'm curious about, and research issues to make my decisions."

ME: "Oh, I just watch the news. Do you want to be a psychologist?"

BRENDA: "I'm considering it. I'd love to help people get past things like PTSD. I'm just not sure I can deal with listening to people's troubles. I'm too empathetic."

ME; "Yeah. That could be interesting."

BRENDA: "I had a friend tell me about a new approach, studying positive psychology. What the factors are that are involved when people are well-adjusted, happy and confident. That sounds fascinating."

ME: "All the crazies are happy and confident. And why not? They have everything and the rest of us have nothing."

BRENDA: "Well, for me, I'd rather use my brain, even if it removes my rose-colored glasses. I love to learn, but I want facts."

ME: "Facts are nice. How long will it take you to get a degree?"

BRENDA: "I'll have my associates in two years. Right now I'm working on writing a paper for one of my classes. I chose to write about so-called religious freedom and how it is used to deny non-religious people their freedom. What's your opinion on that?"

ME "I don't argue about God from that perspective. I merely maintain that no one's ever seen Him so He doesn't exist. Also, what do we need Him for?"

BRENDA: "I neither need nor want him, which is why I am unhappy about religious people trying to force their rules on the rest of us."

ME: "How does your argument go? i.e. religious freedom versus freedom for the rest of us."

BRENDA: "The simple version is that religion belongs in people's homes and churches, and has no place in government, businesses and schools. Laws should be to protect innocent people, but certainly not based on biblical values."

ME: "Do you have an example of what you're talking about?"

BRENDA: "Kim Davis, the county clerk who refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples based on her Christian beliefs, in total disregard of the law. There are several law enforcement agencies who are putting 'In God We Trust' decals on their vehicles. Did you know that 'In God We Trust' was added to our currency in the 1950s? As was 'under God' added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954. Why? Because of fears that 'atheist communists' were going to destroy the country so they were bringing the country 'back to God.'
"I've had this discussion with several Christians trying to explain that as they, as the current majority, put religion where it doesn't belong and try to legislate compliance to religious beliefs. It's setting a dangerous precedent. What happens when Christians are no longer the majority and we're all forced to bow to Sharia law for instance, under the legal precedent they pushed for? Now I personally don't like being ruled over by religion of any kind, but for those who want to follow a religion they would be wise to keep it where it belongs. It's in the best interest of all of us."

ME: "It's unfortunate there're people who can make us say "in God we Trust.'"

BRENDA: "It's more unfortunate that laws are being made to force people to comply to biblical standards - of course cherry-picked standards."

ME: "You lost me. What are 'cherry-picked standards?'"

BRENDA: "For instance focusing on a few verses in the Bible that talk against homosexuality and using that strictly, but ignoring verses against adultery, coveting, gluttony, greed, etc. They cherry pick which verses to adhere to without exception, and wink at others with the excuse that they weren't meant to be taken literally or that they applied then but times are different now."

ME: "You're right that they want us all to lead 'Bibical' lives. There should be some legal way to stop them. Marriage is 'Biblical.' The 'States' should stop issuing marriage licenses."

RENDA: "The word marriage is never used in the Bible. But are you saying that the concept of pairing up and making commitments between people is only a Christian idea? Did it not exist otherwise? I find that hard to imagine.

"Besides, in today's world, where a marriage is a legal, civil contract with financial implications, it makes sense for the government to issue licenses. Those licenses should be available to all consenting adult couples. You can always get a religious ceremonial marriage to fill your religious beliefs. When I got married we got a marriage license at the city building and then had our religious ceremony in the evening. At that time we believed that the religious ceremony was the one that really mattered, the civil marriage was what gave us a financial advantage - tax breaks, it was easier to put both our names on our children's birth certificates, we had the legal right to make decisions for each other in emergencies, etc."

ME: "There's no real reason why people would want to live together. The idea was created by religious types."

BRENDA: "I may be crazy, but I think there are reasons. Maybe that's just leftover thoughts from when I used to be religious, but I don't think so."

ME: "Well, the idea of a special ceremony is 'Biblical.'"

BRENDA: "Perhaps, but getting a marriage license doesn't involve a special ceremony, it's simply a legal contract."

ME: "Yeah, but it comes from a ceremony. There's no reason for a contract."

BRENDA: "With the way our society is set up now, a contract has definite benefits. It's a civil agreement. Religious ceremony is making moral promises with God."

ME: "I can only repeat I don't think a contract is necessary."

BRENDA: "That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I see things differently."

ME: "What else do they do that's 'Biblical?' And an imposition on the rest of us?"

BRENDA: "In most states there are laws giving exemptions for religious beliefs, even not allowing civil or criminal prosecution of parents whose children die from what are often easily treatable conditions. Why? Because the treatment would go against the parents' religious beliefs. Many don't get their children vaccinated, not only opening themselves up to preventable diseases, but in some cases spreading disease to those around them.

"How 'godly' is it to deny medical care to innocent little children? They have no voice, so they suffer and die as martyrs to their parents' religious beliefs. Then it is rejoiced that 'god's will was done.' "

ME: "I don't know how they can get away with this. It would be simple enough to declare these people as 'unfit parents' and take the kids away from them. This is really crazy."

BRENDA: "There are laws protecting them. I actually learned just today that a dozen children have died within three years in Idaho, all part of a religion that doesn't believe in medical care. All from treatable conditions. And the coroner doesn't even do an autopsy when children die from lack of medical care for religious reasons.

"The Supreme Court has made rulings, but states have used states rights to create exemptions. Boils my blood! I have six kids and I can't imagine letting them be hurt for 'God'!"

ME: "That's too bad but there's nothing we can do about it."

BRENDA: "Isn't there? The lawmakers in this country want power and they want to he elected. If enough people would stand up for the protection of children it would change. It may take time, but we need to at least be moving in that direction."

ME: "I think you'll be disappointed in the number of 'Stand Up' people you find. Are you familiar at all with the specifics of these cases? "

BRENDA: "I read a little bit about some of them, but I haven't had a chance to do real research yet. One piece I read was written by a pediatrician, and she talked about how difficult it was for her to see children that she knew could be helped, but the parents wouldn't allow treatment."

ME: "What did the Supreme court say about these cases? And what are the exceptions you're talking about?"

BRENDA" "The Supreme Court made a ruling, I don't recall the year, but it basically said that if adults want to die as martyrs for their religion that was their business, but they aren't allowed to choose for their children to do so. But states have individually made exemptions where parents can't be prosecuted for the death of a child from withholding medical care if it was because of the parents religious beliefs. Maybe no one has tried to push these cases to the Supreme court? I honestly don't understand how it all works."

ME: "I don't think the States could make a law like that. Not after the Supreme Court said what it did about the matter."

BRENDA: "Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me either. But, like I said, I really don't understand it all. I'd love to talk to someone who could explain it."

ME: "Let's talk about something else. Why does the Government have to spend all this money on the military. No one wants to invade us or bomb us. What would be the point? I think we should do away with our Navy and Air Force. And most of our Army. What do you think about that?"

BRENDA : "I agree. I think keeping our money and manpower inside and creating a strong nation would be ideal. Once we can take care of all of our own citizens, then we can worry about other countries."

ME: "I don't see why we have to worry about other countries. Let them do what ever they want to."

BRENDA: "I think they might come to more lasting solutions, and very likely with less loss of life than when our military gets involved."

ME: "Did you ever wonder how all these millionaires got their money? What could someone do to make all that money?"

BRENDA: "I know that most millionaires came into their money by, if not outright dishonest means then at least by unethical means. Practically stealing it off the backs of the working poor. Those who do the hard, menial labor can hardly survive while their bosses live like kings."

ME: "Yeah, but what do they do that's so important it's worth millions? Aren't they just moving money around the same as a lot of people could do? I don't think they have any special abilities."

BRENDA; "I completely agree. Very few of them are actually doing anything. Their only real skill is in hiring people who can effectively do the work."

ME; "Yeah. These people should be taxed 90 percent of their income."

BRENDA: "A far better approach would be if the pay scale wasn't so extreme. Having the super rich heavily taxed just puts the money and control in a different set of greedy hands. If the common worker was paid better, it would keep money circulating and make a stronger economy. Not to mention the boost in hope. I believe much crime can be attributed to loss of hope."

ME: "I don't get it. How does taxing the millionaires 90 percent of their income make things worse?"

BRENDA: "Because how do we get money into the hands of the Workers instead of the pockets of the politicians? Less money needs to be paid to the highest paid people and spread among the lowest paid people. Give them power over their lives instead of turning to government hand outs to survive."

ME: "The government can do both. It can raise the minimum wage too. The way you have it, the rich remain rich. They're not going to pay raises out of their own pocket."

BRENDA: "Well, I don't trust the government any more than I trust the millioniares - they're two peas in a pod, in my estimation. I guess the real base problem is greed, and you can't legislate greed away.

"I don't watch the news, do you have any idea how raising the minimum wage is working out in the states that are trying it out?"

ME: "I'm talking about an ideal situation rather than what's going on now. In my ideal situation

the government is honest and sensible. And run by normal people rather than Christian 'Fuzzy Brains.'

"I suppose the people who got raises took the money home and spent it. I don't know anything more about it than that."

BRENDA: "If the government was honest and sensible that would solve a myriad of problems. I just meant in reference to whether or not raising the minimum wage is working or if all the issues that were predicted by the business owners came true? Like cutting jobs so that fewer people have jobs... Maybe someday I'll write a book about what I think the ideal society would be like."

ME: "I don't know. There's hasn't been anything in the news about it."

BRENDA: "Do you watch Star Trek? I have always hoped that something similar was in our future - where war and poverty on earth is a thing of the past, and technology is used for the good and well-being of all."

ME: "Technology isn't the answer. The problem is all the crazy, stupid people around. Something the Media hides. We can't solve anything important until these people are reprogramed."

BRENDA: "I guess I hold on to a more optimistic outlook, and hope to make changes in this world. If enough of us, who do use our brains, wouldn't give up we could do it."

ME: "You know, I haven't found anyone that's pessimistic about the stupid, crazy people. That makes you a conformist."

BRENDA: "If only more people would conform to optimism about the stupid, crazy people! If I'm going to be labelled a conformist, that's about the only thing I could agree with."

ME: "That's very amusing. You really should be on the stage."

BRENDA: "I've had people tell me that before. I suppose if making people laugh about serious problems gets awareness I'd be for it."

ME: "Well seriously, the stupid, crazy people can't be helped. What are you going to do, anyway?"

BRENDA: "By bringing awareness and education to those who will listen and spreading intelligence. Hopefully we can just outnumber those who refuse logic and at least limit the damage they can do."

ME: "Okay."

BRENDA: "I have ideas for projects that could help women and children. It's kind of about connecting people, at least for part of it. There have been several stories lately of women either abandoning or killing their own babies. Many times post-partum depression is blamed.

"When I had my babies I was fortunate to have family and community that were my support network. When you add that to a life of raising and caring for babies as well as a stable home life, I did okay.

"Sadly, too many women don't have those things. They need help, and I'd love to organize something that would provide some help, and ultimately influence success. If children start life with stability, it seems rational that their lives would be influenced for the better.

"I know, more of my optimism showing through."

ME: "Yes, you really are the Very Shining Ray of Hope. What's next?"

BRENDA: "I'd like to set up safe houses for victims of abuse. Where women would get job training and education, and help getting on their feet, but still have some privacy in a setting separate from homeless men, drug users and so forth."

ME:"Well, you're certainly a Champion of the downtrodden. It's not going to do you any good. They're just as stupid, rotten and ungrateful as everybody else."

BRENDA: "I'd like to believe that there are at least some who just need a hand up. I feel like that's where I came from. Willing and able to work hard, just needing a boost out of despair and hopelessness.

"Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I would be bitterly disappointed."

ME: "They're going to tell you their happiness is getting a punch in the face. People are Crazy."

BRENDA: "Well, then I suppose the only sensible thing for me to do would be to just quit, give up my ideals, and live for myself."

ME: "Yeah. People can't be helped. I look at these sad creatures and realize they're all crazy. I've talked to them. They're confused. And you can't tell them anything. We live in a Giant Lunatic Asylum."

BRENDA: "I'm beginning to feel as though it's a punishment to have intelligent thought and reasoning when most of the world is filled with crazies."

ME: "Yeah. You can't 'Get with the Program.'"

BRENDA: "Okay, so you're convinced that the world is full of stupid, crazy people who have no interest in improving their situation. Then would it be morally acceptable for those who use their intelligence to live selfishly and get whatever they can?

"I've always had lofty goals to help others, and you say that's a hopeless cause. So I should feel no twinge of conscience if I keep the fruits of my success to myself?"

ME: "There's really nothing to do except that. The Leadership, of the 'Monolith,' tell us there're causes to champion but it's just another scam."

BRENDA: "Why do you think they say there are causes to champion? What do they hope to accomplish by pushing the scam?"

ME: "To keep people occupied with nonsense."

BRENDA: "Well, once I get rich I'll decide what I'll do with my wealth. For now I suppose it doesn't matter - I'm too poor to do much for anyone else. It's enough to provide for my own six kids."

ME: "The leadership exalts in it's rottenness and corruption."

BRENDA: "Yes, I suppose so. Then I'd best get busy making my own fortune and take care of me and mine."

ME: "Yeah. How are you going to make a fortune?"

BRENDA: "In a variety of ways. I'm in college and going to get a business degree. That can start it, then I'll have money for starting businesses and growing my money. I have a lot of ideas."

ME: "Okay."

BRENDA: "I came from a polygamist cult, which, you may imagine, was filled with strict rules. Since I left, I;ve had to rethink a lot of things. One of them is birth control and abortion. What are your views on it?"

ME: "Abortion is murder. Birth control's alright."

BRENDA: "Okay."

ME: "I think, life exists at the moment of conception. The embryo is aware of it's own existence and can fear death."

BRENDA: "Not until farther along in pregnancy. But I'm only speaking from my experiences with my own pregnancies, and miscarriages."

ME: "Well, we'll have to disagree."

BRENDA: "That's fine. This isn't the only thing we disagree on. Good thing we live in a free country."

ME: "What else do we disagree about?"

BRENDA: "That it's a hopeless cause to try to help people. My optimism just won't let me believe it - at least not as strongly as you do."

ME: "Yeah, I can see that."

BRENDA: "Back to wealth inequality: How about higher education? Should a four year college education be paid for by tax dollars?"

ME: "The only important thing to do is to get everyone into 'therapy.'"

BRENDA: "Exactly what kind of 'therapy' do you suggest?"

ME: "Mental therapy."

BRENDA: "But if people are just stupid, as you say they are, will mental therapy do any good?"

ME: "That's certainly a point. But I think it could be done by removing ideas rather than adding them."

BRENDA: "Wouldn't you need to replace ideas to make it effective?"

ME: "I believe it's suffient to just stop them from thinking about the 'offensive' ideas."

BRENDA: "So they need to be de-programmed. How would you go about doing this?"

ME: "Well, with some sort of aversion therapy. Something unpleasant. It's sad, but it has to be done."

BRENDA: "To me, it seems as though the resulting hardship that their lives have become through their stupid choices would be 'aversion therapy' enough. But then again, I actually think about things."

ME: "I think about things too. They're not suffering. To the contrary, they're having a good time. Their feelings are reversed."

BRENDA: "Then, perhaps, we just need separate continents to separate people. Though those who choose to be stupid likely would self destruct before long."

ME: "Or, like I said, we can go with mental therapy."

BRENDA: "But where do you begin? Obviously these people don't believe they have a problem. How do you get them into this therapy?"

ME: "Right. In the present circumstances you can't. But if there was a coup d'état the project could be brought before the new government. You would say: 'We'll program criminals and dissidents.' And maybe they'd go for it. That would be just the beginning. Ultimately the entire population could be programed."

BRENDA: "True. The only problem comes with who decides what that programming consists of, and who is ultimately the benefactor. The good of the people, or the benefit of those at the top. We could end up pretty much right back where we started."

ME: "It's not possible to discuss these things without a real case."

BRENDA: "There's not a lot you can discuss without specifics."

ME: "No."
BRENDA: "What are your thoughts on the importance of art and other right-brain/creative studies in school?"

ME: "I like art and go to museums sometimes."

BRENDA "I'm into teaching it in schools, including it as a valuable part of balanced life and education."

A server comes over. Brenda orders coffee. The server pours it and leaves.

ME; "Oh, I don't attach much importance to it. I suppose, it's good for something. Some of us like it anyway. You know, it's not a teaching tool. Artists say it is but they're wrong. You have to use words to teach. Writers are teachers not artists."

BRENDA; "I disagree. Learning art techniques, expression and being creative is another dimension to our thought processes and how we understand and perceive the world around us. I think that without nurturing all the facets of our intellectual we are missing out on our full potential."

ME; "What exactly did you learn that was so wonderful?"

BRENDA: "I learned to look at things from a different perspective and how to use creativity as a form of expression. I had never really looked at art before, and now I see and understand so much more. I don't enjoy all art styles, but it's as though a whole new world has opened up to my consciousness."

ME; "Art is a toy. It's purpose is entertainment. It doesn't teach anyone anything. Anyway, what styles do you like and dislike?"

BRENDA: "I don't know a lot about styles, but I like natural more than abstract."

ME: "Maybe you'll change your mind when you get more into it."

BRENDA: "Entirely possible. I've changed my mind on many things."

ME: "Does the teacher tell you artists communicate with people at a subliminal level?"

BRENDA: "No. The way I understand it is more of an emotional approach and understanding of a concept. A little less technical and methodical, a little more humanistic, I guess."

ME: "That sounds about right. How do you teach a concept without using words?"

BRENDA: "I think language is often weak when it comes to emotion and art. But words can still be used to help describe and bring understanding to somewhat abstract concepts."

ME: "I don't think they're weak. I think they're necessary."

BRENDA: "I just mean that it can be difficult to put emotions, feelings, and art concepts into words that sufficiently express what they mean to us as humans."

ME: "No it's not, just say whatever you want to."

BRENDA: "Well, perhaps you have a greater command of vocabulary than I do. But I find there are times when words can't describe what my heart and mind feels."

ME: "My vocabulary isn't any better than your's. All you have to do is think things out. Hearts and minds aren't secrets."

BRENDA: "Then perhaps I have deeper expressions of heart and soul. I am teasing you, to a degree, you know. Though I admit I am getting much better at expressing myself in writing."

ME: "Artists are the greatest Bullshit artists in history."

BRENDA: "Oh, no, that would be politicians."

ME: "Take your pick. Do you want to continue to talk about art?"

BRENDA: "Not really, not when you think artists are bullshitters. Besides, I'm no expert anyway."

ME: "Okay. Do you have favorite subject?"

BRENDA: "Social injustice and religion being a fraud that does a lot of damage, and trying to figure out how to change the world."

ME: "You certainly have your work cut out for you if you're going to change the world. Where will you start?"

BRENDA; "I'm going to start with the injustice that I'm closest to: the horrific injustices within the FLDS cult. I'm writing a paper with research on the damages being done through the methods of control they use. Then I'm going to learn grant writing and work on some ideas I'm mulling over for helping victims. It's my jumping-off point, and I'll continue from there."

ME; "The grant writing sounds interesting. I bet you're looking forward to that? Is there a course for it?"

BRENDA; "I couldn't find one at the community college, but there are some online. I'm thinking about trying the library at the U next."

ME: "Then you need to set up an organization and get it okayed by the Government, don't you? Do you know someone who knows how to do this?"

BRENDA: "I believe you're right. I don't know anyone, but I'm pretty sure I can find someone. The research and paper I'm putting together is powerful, and I'll share it with my contacts and I'm confident that someone knows someone who can help me, or at least point me in the right direction."

ME: "It's really hard to find the right person. It always turns out that no one knows anything about it."

BRENDA: "Someone must know something. I'm confident that I'll find the help I need. I'm laying the groundwork and I'll keep doing my part and taking the right steps."

ME: "You should start tomorrow. You'll see what I mean."

BRENDA: "It will take more than a day to complete and compile my research into a paper ready to be shared. But as soon as I possibly can I will start on it, with great hopes of success. I think you're overly negative about things."

ME: "Oh, sure. Years ago I called people in the state and federal government and asks them how to set up a tax free charity. It was so complicated and required so many things to do, that it was impossible. I forget the details."

BRENDA: "All I can do is try. I refuse to give up without trying."

ME; "What do you intend to do with the funding? What are you going to do that you can't do now? There's nothing you can say to the 'Polies' to make them quit. And really, they won't talk to you anyway. How many 'Polies' have you saved? That's what people are going to ask you. And you're stuck with saying: 'Oh, none.' This project of yours is unrealistic."

BRENDA; "I intend to set up job training for women who leave, and help with writing resumes. Most of the women there have never worked outside of their homes, have very little education, and, naturally, have never written a resume or gone to a job interview. That part was really tough for me.
"Secondly, I want to have a beginning course for them to attend, as part of the program. Something very similar to the Venture program that I attended. It served so many purposes to me and literally changed my life. It was a huge step in meeting people on the "outside" in a safe, educational environment.
"Thirdly, I would like to start a business that creates products that can be manufactured at home. Many of these women have had at least some of there children separated from them for a time before they escaped. And either way, when you first uproot yourselves and escape such an all-consuming cult the thing your children need most is stability and time with their mother. I want to provide subsidized work so those old enough to work can pitch in and help provide. Most of these people are hard working people and it's better to have work than a hand out, but it's very difficult to make the immediate adjustment to working away from home. Also, these children need someone to care for them.
"Fourth, I'd like to get business owners to partner with my organization that would provide entry-level jobs with the understanding that these people may need some understanding and an adjustment period. Trying to provide them with work along with an opportunity to meet people and create friendships.
"Fifth, I'd like to provide tutors who can work with children and adults alike to get them caught up in educational subjects. Education has been something that was ignored for the last 10 to 15 years out there. And I believe that education is a key element to success in this world. At least a good, basic education of the three "R"s, and I'd love to add many kinds of art therapy.
"Those are the beginnings of what I'd like to do, then there are loftier ideas I'd like to attain if I had the financial means. I want to start with my fellow FLDS escapees, but I'd love for it to expand into an organization that helped other abused and disadvantaged women also.
"I'm still struggling with many of these issues and am fighting to do things for myself and family, I haven't got the time or money to help others, but I DO know what would help them assimilate and normalize faster. I've lived through it."

ME: "You really are incredible in your concern for people who are too stupid to even say: 'Thank you.'"

BRENDA: "I think that there are a few who would be grateful, I'm interested in helping those few even if many won't be grateful. Besides, I would set things up to be involvement based. If the people stay involved and follow the steps they can continue to get help, but it will not be a crutch forever, just a hand up to success."

ME; "I don't know where you find all this 'Goodness.'"

BRENDA: "It is what I turned to after a life of fear and hopelessness. It's the only answer I can find to help me have hope for a better tomorrow. I want to give others the opportunity I wish I had to get a hand up and a real chance at success. I wish no one had to live in the darkness of oppression, void of love and hope."

ME: "The problem is all the stupid people. Somehow, they have to get therapy."

BRENDA: "It reminds me of one of my favorite sayings: 'Stop bashing what you hate and support what you love.' I can't force stupid people to choose to educate themselves or change. I can do something to help those who are in unfortunate circumstances, those who aren't stupid and will do something with their lives if just given a chance. If enough people succeeded it might show a better way to the stupid ones, if not, they can stay out of my way."

ME: "I just can't show you the 'Light.' Maybe you'll see it sometime in the future?"

BRENDA; "Compared to the darkness I lived in, most everything is 'light' now. Having the freedom to think for myself, to choose to go to school, to choose my friends, to choose where I work....for me, freedom is addictive and true happiness is something I'm feeling for the first time. I only want to help others, like myself, to have happiness, freedom and choices. Maybe someday I'll be ruined, my hopes will all be dashed and I'll die a bitter old lady, but I can't give up without trying."

ME: "Okay."

BRENDA: "What were you trying to set up a non-profit for?"

ME: "It happened a long time ago. I don't remember enough of it to explain why I quit doing it. Anyway, I was trying to get people to plead not guilty rather than plea bargain. I wanted to jam up the courts with cases and force an end to the 'Drug War.'"

BRENDA: "Do you really think that's the most effective way to accomplish it?"

ME: "Well, what do you you suggest?"

BRENDA: "I think pressure needs to be put on politicians and studies need to be made, with statistics on how effective the so-called 'drug war' has been. We now have some hard facts to turn to in places like Colorado and where marijuana is legalized. At least from what I've seen their crime rates have dropped, and I know the taxes are immense. Why not set it up for that tax money to go toward education of all kinds?
"If drugs are legalized and regulated we will prevent, to a great degree, the deaths that come from 'home-cooked' drugs that are dangerous and stuff with questionable ingredients.
"To me it's largely a matter of individual rights. Obviously we haven't stopped the use of drugs. We can argue that drugs do damage, but what if there was information given to people so they at least understood the realistic risks involved? What about the 'side effects' of prescription drugs? Have you ever listened to the lists at the end of drugs commercials?
"We already know that scare tactics don't work. If adults choose to do drugs, it's their responsibility. No different than alcohol. If you harm someone while under the influence there are penalties.
"Instead of clogging the court system, wasting tax dollars for useless, victimless 'crimes' we should focus on real crime."

ME: "That's just not going to change anything. You can't explain things to people. I keep telling you this and you never hear me or if you do you forget it as soon as I say it."

BRENDA; "I give up. You go raise money to convince people to clog the court system, I won't try to stop you. Good luck with that."
"Apparently I'm another one of your 'stupid' people who don't listen."

ME: "Yeah. You sure are."

BRENDA: "Well, my 'stupidity' hasn't stopped me from making immense progress in my life in the last three years since I've had my freedom. Maybe we should check in with each other in ten years and see who was right?"

ME; "Ten years from now we'll have the same 'drug war.' And they'll have 4 million people in prision. Right now they have 2 million. And all the while people have been saying: check back in 10 years and we'll see who's right. The 'drug war' is almost 100 years old."

BRENDA: "If you had the ability to choose, what would your life look like? What do you really wish you could do with your life, how and where would you live?"

ME: "I wish I could get rid of the 'Leadership.'"

BRENDA: "That's pretty much a given, so that's not really what I was asking. For example, for me, I dream of owning a large property where I can have gardens, vineyards and orchards. I absolutely love growing things. I also love preserving my food. I could be very happy with a simpler life, close to the earth. It would be even better with friends and more family around."

ME: "I always lived here and don't expect to live anywhere else."

BRENDA: "Do you enjoy cooking?"

ME: "Not so much. I do it so I won't starve. I heat up something. It takes me 15 minutes to cook, eat and clean up. You know, the Television Turds are always talking about the Joys of Farming so I suppose that's why everyone wants one."

BRENDA: "I don't watch television, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I just enjoy working with the soil, growing all kinds of stuff, and I love creating delicious food."

ME: "Okay."

BRENDA: "Yep, it is okay."

ME: "Okay."

BRENDA: "Your brilliant and detailed responses in our conversation leave me at a loss for words."

ME: "Me too."

BRENDA: "I will say, we definitely have very different interests."

ME: "How very true."

BRENDA: "But that's what makes the world go 'round."

ME: "The original spining motion makes the world go 'round."

BRENDA: "You might be surprised. If we all became clones and complete conformists the world might come to a standstill! Haha."

ME: "It would be just like it is now. People are clones and conformists anyway."

BRENDA: "You just agreed that you and I have different views and opinions. I refuse to be lumped in with crazy religious types - basically right now there are at least differing groups of conformists. But I still don't consider myself conformist to any group mentality that I know. I very carefully consider, weigh sides, look at information and then decide how I feel about individual issues."

ME: "I didn't say you."

BRENDA: "Well, if I'm not included then we aren't all drones yet. So there's still some variety."

ME: "I suppose."

BRENDA: "Of all the movies I've seen I hate the futuristic ones that show the masses as completely controlled, monotonous robots. I know that In some ways we're not far from it with a lot of people, but I'm sure glad I'm not one of them! And I'm glad I know others who aren't as well."

ME: "I like those movies. One of the best is 'Brave New World.' Written by Aldous Huxley back in the 30's."

BRENDA: "I spent a lifetime in fear of the 'end of the world.' I prefer not to watch those movies. I enjoy keeping busy and focusing on learning, improving and living today to the very fullest."

ME: "I think the end of the world will come, if it comes at all, with a nuclear war."

BRENDA: "I agree. If that happens there's nothing I can do, and worrying or living in fear just steals today. I lived that way for nearly 40 years and now I'm ready to just live!"

ME: "Yeah."

BRENDA: "The world is full of fear and hate. I intend to do my part to spread more peace, love and joy."

ME: "Okay."

BRENDA: "So what are you doing to make the world a better place?"

ME: "Nothing. Am I supposed to?"

BRENDA; "I think so. The way I see it is that if you're not trying to do at least some little thing to make the world a better place then you have no right to complain. Imagine the difference it was would make if every soul on the earth put an effort into trying it? The cumulative effect would be incredible."

ME: "What is it we're all supposed to do to make this a better world? I really think you're hysterical with all this 'helping people' stuff. It's time for you to step back and take a look at yourself."

BRENDA: "For starters just having the attitude that I want to help people will go a lot further than your attitude that "people are stupid and hopeless so why try"? If more people were looking for ways to help those around them, I believe it would make a difference. But I'm interested in helping people where it does make a difference so I would hesitate to help someone with your attitude."

ME: "I'd like you to answer my question. What are we supposed to do to make this a better world? How could we help someone? What is it your talking about? Is it giving money to charities or what? Who and how are we supposed to help? Where do you get all this caring? I don't understand you at all."

BRENDA: "Showing compassion, being polite, getting past stereotypes and prejudices are all good beginnings. Donating to charity, maybe. But carefully chosen because some charities are run by people who pay themselves an outrageous salary. Donating used items to homeless shelters where you know it's getting to those in need, supporting humanitarian projects, food drives, educational programs and parks, sharing knowledge and passion for things that enrich lives instead of destroying them."

ME: "It's nothing I want to do. I consider it laughable and a waste of time and money. Who cares? Not me."

BRENDA: "Well, I still think it's better to have a positive outlook. Even though some people make it extremely difficult to do so."

ME: "What did they do?"

BRENDA: "They don't try to do anything for themselves. Maybe it's because they've given up hope. That's what I try to think. But for some I think it's more about an attitude of entitlement, a sense of not wanting to have to work for anything. Those people are the ones I find hard to want to help.

"People who live surrounded with trash, not because they're poor, but because they drop garbage where they sit. They could at least pull weeds even if they can't afford to buy flowers....you know what I mean? I'd rather not put my energies toward those who won't do anything for themselves."

ME: "How do you find these people?"

BREMDA: "I used to live in a town at least halfway populated with that kind of people."

ME: "So, you don't see them anymore?"

BRENDA: "No. Other than my immediate family - my husband and our kids - none of those people are really in my life anymore. Other than a few of them through social media."

ME: "Were you working for a charity at the time you knew them? Were you in a position to resourc them?"

BRENDA: "No. I was living in a town of polygamists where many lived off welfare - either just government or from the church also. Too often they lived in filth and garbage, not doing what they could do. I was extremely poor as well, but I kept my house and property clean, weeded, and even gathered seeds and got plant starts from other people. I made the absolute most of what I had. So I understand, from experience, that there is always something you can to make life better. And I would have loved to have someone help me. But I know not everyone is the same."

ME: "Do you do any charity work? I ask because you talk about it."

BRENDA: "I do the kinds of things I talk about: I help people around me in any way I can. I don't have money to give, but I help connect people with resources, services, and information. I can see where needs are and some things that could make a big difference, but there's only so much I can do.
"I have six kids, two part-time jobs and am taking 19 credit hours of college classes, so my time is somewhat limited."

ME: "I just wondered."

BRENDA: "That's why I've talked about a non-profit. A way to connect people with resources - those people who are willing, industrious and just need a hand up."

ME; "Oh,sure. That's great. But I think reality will get in the way."

BRENDA: "There's a good chance it will, it has already."

ME: "Really, how so?"

BRENDA: "Because I can't do all I want to. My dreams are so much bigger than my resources. My dreams are so much bigger than this world wants to give me room for....I want to help people, but sometimes when I try - well, people can be cruel. Usually the most cruel ones are the most ignorant."

ME: "I don't know what to tell you."

BRENDA: "There really are no answers. It's life. I'll continue to do what I can and hope to be able to do more in time. Right now my biggest focus is taking care of my own little family and getting my college classes finished."

ME: "Yeah, I don't know where you got this idea of 'sharing and caring.' It's certainly nothing I want to do. It sounds like something you got from Jesus. I'm glad I didn't have 40 years of brainwashing."

Brenda: "I don't give any credit to Jesus or my brainwashing. I got it from my mother and her parents, my grandparents. I believe it's in my blood. They showed me how to love and care, by example."

ME: "And they got it from Jesus. Who else talks about 'loving and caring?' What's the point of it? Who cares?"

BRENDA: "My grandparents were very nonreligious, Jesus was certainly not their role model. I don't believe in God or Jesus, but I sincerely care about people. "
"If everyone cared the world would be a better place."

ME: "What would it change?"

BRENDA: "It would make less people taking unfair advantage of each other. It would make a better world for children. It would create more peace."

ME: "People do bad things because they think they're good things. They're robots with a program."

BRENDA: "I suppose I'm the same, in a way. I do good things, I care about people, because that's how I'm programmed. I can't help it. I don't think I can stop caring, but I am learning to be more selective in who I help and how much I give up."

ME: "You're a caring robot."

BRENDA: "That may be true, though I don't believe I'm simply a robot. I have fought my way out of what I was programmed to follow and on purpose searched out truth and changed my ideals accordingly. But, if I am a robot, I'm glad to be a caring one."

ME: "Okay. The programing is done by live performers who put the audience in a trance. I supposed you never noticed?"

BRENDA: "I feel that I've broken free from that trance. On one hand it's very liberating and enlightening, but on the other hand it's hard to be surrounded by people who just want to keep following the performance and stay in a trance. Mindless obedience to those who tell them what to think."

ME: "I've saved people but I don't describe myself as a 'caring' person. And I'm not searching for people I can save."

BRENDA: "They seem to find me."

ME: "Oh."

BRENDA: "I'm getting hungry, I think I'll order a salad - you want anything?"

ME: "Oh, sure, thanks. A cheeseburger and a coke."

She waves a server over and gives her our order. The server gets me a coke and leaves.

BRENDA: "Sometimes it sure feels like it would be easier to just not care about the people around me."

ME: "You have a good idea there. You should hold on to it."

BRENDA; "I don't know how to change it. I don't really *try* to care, it's just how my heart works. But it's a good way of getting hurt."

ME: "In what way were you hurt?"

BRENDA; "Well, I care about people, and I have empathy for their situation, because I know how I have felt in similar situations. It would mean a lot to me to have someone help me out and I want to do all I can for others. The problem is, apparently not everyone who's in a bad situation is willing to do their part. Many people are in a bad situation by their own choices or laziness. It hurts to be taken advantage of. It hurts to give and get slapped in the face as a thank you.
"I am learning my lesson though. I'm much more selective about who I help. And for sure my little family comes first now. I give mostly advice and information on where resources can be found. Maybe someday, when I'm super rich, I'll give to or start a foundation that can more easily regulate and specialize where the help goes."

ME; "I would love to hear about those 'slap in the face' experiences."

BRENDA: "Ok. But once I tell you, you'll think I'm really crazy."

"This is probably the craziest example. I rearranged my home and life, invited my sister and her two kids to move in. She had lost her job, and she always talked about how her kids meant everything to her.
"We offered to support them so she could go to college, get on her feet and become independent. She lived with me for 6 months, then started complaining about how I raise my kids, turned my other sisters against me, stopped talking to me...I'm quite lonely without family, but I'm choosing 'family' of my own."

ME: "That's a good one. What are some others."

BRENDA: "When I lived in "Short Creek," while I was in the FLDS, I sewed custom-made baby car seat covers. People had lots of babies, but little money. I must have made hundreds of them. I would get phone calls from women I didn't know and they would come to my house with their car seats. I would buy old white sheets at the little thrift shop in town, and batting wherever I could get it cheap. I would ask the women to buy the main fabric - I hardly had any money. I would take the old car seat covers off, scrub up the plastic parts, wash the straps, and make beautiful new covers. I never charged anyone a dime. I understood how nice it was to have a 'new,' clean, well-made baby seat cover.
"Although everyone knew who I was when they wanted something sewn, they would quickly, conveniently forget. Many of these same women wouldn't even make eye contact with me or acknowledge that they knew me outside of these transactions. At church, at community projects, etc., I was still nobody.
"I wasn't sewing for people to make friends, I was honestly wanting to give of myself the unusual talent and skill that I possessed. But it was still hurtful and I felt taken advantage of many times."

ME: "That's people. That's just what they're like, You have to stop being so nice. Do you have any more stories like that?"

BRENDA; "My life is pretty much one long string of stories similar to those. I grew a huge garden, fighting against people's stray horses, goats, rabbits, chickens and kids. I bottled and preserved and gave away most of what I grew to help provide for others as well as my family. I enjoyed helping others feed their families good food."

ME; "So how did the people treat you? Rotten, I suppose. Huh?"

BRENDA; "More like indifference. Of course people want what they can get, but it didn't make me any friends. I wasn't in it for friends, really, but giving so much and then practically still be non-existent wasn't fun."

ME:"Of course not. How could you possibly believe it would be otherwise. I just can't understand how you got like this."

The server returns with Brendas' salad and leaves again.

BRENDA: "It's simple. I expected that others felt the same as I did and would respond how I would have in their place. Yes, I realize now that's not how life works, but I guess at the time I wanted to believe it was different."

ME: "The Leadership fooled you. They tell everyone people are nice. I don't know why they do that."

BRENDA; "I was never fooled into thinking everyone was nice. I'm not that stupid."

ME: "You expected all those people who did you wrong to be nice people."

The server returns with my cheeseburger and leaves again.

BRENDA: "No, I really didn't expect them to be nice. I only hoped they would be. I guess that makes me stupid. Hopeful, but stupid."

ME: "Maybe you can stop doing it now that you know it's no fun."

BRENDA; "I have stopped mostly. I'm very selective and careful about what I do and for who. I no longer do things people can - and should - do for themselves. Now I'd like to do something bigger, but with a lot of prescreening, organization and strict rules. Only for those who are willing to work hard and do their part and just need an opportunity and a handful up."

ME: "I think you're obsessive."

BRENDA: "I could have worse obsessions."

ME; "No good can come of an obsession."

BRENDA: "Any obsession can be overcome. I'm doing better than ever, and I'm not hurting anyone."

ME; "I don't think so."

BRENDA; "Who am I hurting and how?"

ME: "I didn't say you were hurting anyone."

BRENDA: "Ok, so then were you saying you don't think I can overcome this 'obsession'?"

ME: "Right, I don't think so."

BRENDA: "Well, I guarantee you that I'm 1,000 times better, maybe there's no cure, but I'm definitely doing better."

ME: "You're obsessive about helping people. I don't know how you think you're doing better."

BRENDA: "I don't let it take over my life. It used to, but now it's just something I'd like to do in limited areas."

ME: "Same thing, it's 'Nuts.'"

BRENDA: "Suit yourself. Believe what you want."

ME: "Lets talk about sometng else. None of your sisters talk to you anymore?"

BRENDA; "No, not really. Most of them are still faithful in the church, and thus forbidden to talk to me. Those that are out don't really talk to me either. There's a big age difference, and we have lived our lives very differently. Most of my sisters who are 'out' got into drinking, drugs and promiscuity when they left, very young. I was all grown up with six kids when I left."

ME: "Oh."

BRENDA: "It's okay. I'm gathering up family that I choose. I've found some really awesome people."

ME: "Yeah? What's so awesome about them?"

BRENDA: "They're caring, hard-working, honest, freethinkers. Highly intelligent and we have great conversations."

ME; "Your entire life is filled with Caring. You must be thrilled?"

BRENDA: "I enjoy spending time with good, honest, caring people, if that's what you mean."

ME: "We have opposite opinions about almost everything."

BRENDA: "You seem like a somewhat uncaring person. Do you enjoy hanging out with other uncaring people? That seems oppressive."

ME: "I see it as realistic."

BRENDA: "I'm sorry."

ME: "You've ignored everything I've talked about."

BRENDA: "No, I haven't ignored you, I just have a different view on life. I suppose I could say the same for you. I am sorry that you think people who care are somehow crazy. And I'm sorry that you think uncaring people are the 'normal' ones."

ME: "You don't have opinions, you have delusions."

BRENDA: "How can you be so sure you're not the deluded one?"

ME: "I'm sure."

BRENDA: "And millions of people are sure that their God is the one and only true God. They're nuts. Maybe you are, too."

ME: "No, you are."

BRENDA: "That's your opinion. My opinion is that I'm the sane one."

ME: "Well, of course but it doesn't make it true."

BRENDA: "Exactly. And it goes both ways."

I get up and move to another seat at the counter. I wave a server over and order a cup of coffee. She pours it and leaves.

Brenda gets up, walks to the counter, pays the bill. and then walks over to where I'm sitting.

BRENDA: "This is very mature of you, to walk away. I carried on a long conversation, explaining my position and why I care, while you let me know how stupid, crazy, and deluded I am for not being like you - a negative, uncaring person who's so self-assured that you're "right." You're no better than all of those religious crazies that are so damned sure theirs is the one true God. They have no defense other than to say, "I KNOW I'm right."

"After I left the FLDS, I spent months in a very intensive process of studying what I believed and why. Then I carefully chose what I did believe in - by a painstaking method of using reasoning, logic and consideration for all mankind, not just my own selfish wants. You and I will likely never agree, and that's fine. I'm grateful for the freedom, finally, to be who I believe I should be. And I'm willing to face the consequences for my choices. The world won't become a better place through indifference, blind judgment and hate."

"I enjoyed our conversation, and I wish you the best. Goodbye."

She smiles and turns around.to leave.

ME: "We can.....(She turns back)...... continue talking but you can't tell me about Caring. It's just too stupid."

BRENDA: "Do you have a topic in mind? I can't really think of anything else to talk about."

ME: "Sure. Why don't you watch Television?"

BRENDA: "For one thing, I don't have time. I chose to spend my time doing useful things, I love creating, writing, gardening, spending time with my family...and taking 19 credit hours of college classes is quite time-consuming. Most of what's on tv is so fake, so much plastic - I don't enjoy it. I hate to watch the news, it's all negativity and depression."
"Do you watch tv? What do you watch and why?"

ME: "Well, you haven't missed anything. TV is for stupids. But sometimes PBS has somethimg interesting. If you wrote a story, how would it go?"

She sits down again.

BRENDA; "Depends. I have written many stories. Mostly telling about experiences I've had, things I've witnessed - the dark side of religious loyalty. But I've also written a bit about nature, the beauty of the world and how it works - mostly aimed towards children. I'd love to write children's books about nature with a little bit of magic mixed in. I believe nature is magical. It's alive, sustaining and beautiful."

ME; "I'd like to write a futuristic story. The government would be Socialist and concerned with production and little else. Not much art or music or consumption or leisure. People would be reprogramed. Conformists are Robots anyway. That's why I say reprogramed instead of programed."

BRENDA: "Oh, okay. Do you think that would be a better societal model than we have now?"

ME: "Oh sure. That would be beauty. No more listening to idiots."

BRENDA: "Also no more freedom, no more beauty and no more joy. Not a very nice prospect if you ask me. Only a bare existence."

ME: "I don't see any beauty and joy. Where is it?"

BRENDA: "You choose not to see it. You choose to only see everyone as stupid. I choose differently. I see beauty in people, in art, in life - that's my choice."

ME: "I see it as it is, not as I want it to be."

BRENDA: "Then you live in a different world than I do. I see people for who and what they are - I don't automatically judge them to be stupid."

ME: "They're stupid."

BRENDA: "I think it's ridiculous that you feel like you can so easily judge everyone else to be stupid. Do you have a family, kids?"

ME; "I think that's irrelevant."

BRENDA; "I don't. You have such a narrow minded, negative view of the world. I just wonder if you have kids that you look at what their future holds? Or are you so sour because your own life is bland and empty?"

ME; "That's irrelevant too."

BRENDA: "I disagree. It is relevant."

ME: "I already know you disagree. You're not telling me anything new."

BRENDA: "You know, this conversation is going nowhere. Obviously we disagree. I feel like I've wasted my time politely explaining my point of view and trying to understand yours, with very little reciprocation. Your whole platform of reasoning is that everyone is stupid."
"There's no use discussing it any further. I have so much to do, and I'm going to go now. I'm going to go, and continue to do something about making my world a better place."
"I do have kids. Six of them. When I look at them, when I talk to them and listen to their ideas, their dreams, their views on the world it gives me hope. They are awesome people. They aren't stupid. They make this world a better place for me. My world is a beautiful place. That's why it's relevant."
"Again, I wish you the best. Our conversation has been valuable to me. Who knows, we may meet again some day. But for now I'll say goodbye."

ME: "I didn't argue your kids are stupid. I said people are stupid. And they are. They made all those Nuclear weopons for no reason at all. And there're many more examples of their collective stupidity."

BRENDA: "They build weapons because of fear. We all fear each other. Why? Because religious beliefs and social classes divide us. 'My God is better than your God.' It's fear. It's really not stupidity. It's a knee-jerk reaction."
"Mindfulness, respect, and a value for human life beyond our own is the only real answer. But our focus is on production and profitability - the very things that further separate the classes - masters and slaves. We're losing our grasp on the things that make life beautiful and worthwhile. Fears and wars are promoted by those who benefit most from them. They have no respect for the value of the lives lost to forward their agendas. No. It's not really stupidity, it's fear and hopelessness."

ME: "I think they're just stupid. Their brains don't work very well. I"ve never seen the fear and hopelessness you're talking about but I have seen the confused reasoning."

BRENDA: "That is a choice. I really ought to go now."

ME: "Okay. Goodnight. Nice talking to you,"

BRENDA: "Goodnight. Have a nice evening."

ME; "You too. Goodnight."

She gets up and leaves.

It's nighttime, a month later, I'm back at the diner and sitting in a booth. Brenda walks in and sits down opposite me.

ME: "Nice to see you again."

BRENDA: "Likewise. How's life been treating you?"

ME; "The same.. Do you want something to eat? I'm going to get an omelet with everything. Get whatever you want."

BRENDA; "Sure. An omelette sounds fantastic - and a coffee. Thanks."

ME: "You're welcome. What have you been doing?"

A server comes over, I give here the order, she pours 2 coffees and leaves.

BRENDA; "College, mostly. I got all "A"s my first semester, and I'm all lined up for Spring semester.'

ME: "That's amazing to me. I can't imagine getting all 'As.' You're so much different than I am. I went to the 10th grade in High School but the only subject I was good at was English. I was a teachers' assistant there. Did you do that too?"

BRENDA: "No. I was home schooled up to 7th grade, then went to the church school through high school. Warren Jeffs was my main high school teacher. It wasn't a very well-rounded education - focused mostly on a religious opinion of the world - but I love learning."

ME "I like to learn things too. But I was only good at English. And only when I was in my 2nd year of High School. When I wrote, it didn't sound like talking. And then, one day, it did. "

BRENDA; "I really enjoy writing. But I absolutely hated diagramming sentences. I never got it."

ME: "You know It's of no interest at all. I don't know why they bother to teach it. Just to make everything as painful as possible, I suppose."

BRENDA; "People complain about algebra, saying they'll never use it in real life. I've used algebra a lot, but I've certainly never used sentence diagramming."

ME; "Yeah. I never used algebra. What did you use it for?"

BRENDA: "I've used it in cooking - increasing recipes. In sewing when I was designing patterns and fitting things. Especially in making home decor stuff. You know, curtains, bedding, recovery furniture and such. I used it when I worked in my father's basement workshop to calculate materials. And I used to draw up plans for things I wanted to build, I used algebra then, too."

ME: "I never met an algebra user before. Do you use geometry too."

BRENDA: "No. Not so much. I didn't enjoy geometry."

ME; "I think the emphasis on sentence diagraming is an insane attempt to communicate with the stupid people."

BRENDA: "I think it's a method for having crazy control over people."

ME: "How so?"

BRENDA: "Trying to put so many rules, constraints and structure to language is crazy. I understand learning grammar, proper spelling and such, but it's like mind hijacking. Teaching your mind to conform to rules you don't even understand."

ME; "Why would they do that?"

BRENDA: "I don't know, other than as a way to distract, control and achieve conformity. The government loves conformity."

ME: "Why? They don't need it.. And this isn't the government carrying this out. It's academics."

BRENDA: "Who runs the schools? They're government institutions. Thought training indoctrination houses."

ME: "I don't think they're doing that. It seems much too cumbersome and awkward. Something else is going on. Besides, it doesn't break peoples brains, peope just say: 'This's stupid.'"

The server returns with our omelettes and leaves again.

"Looks good Huh?"

BRENDA: "Looks absolutely delicious!"

ME: "Yeah. Here's another mystery. Sports peope.say: 'So-and-so told me to do it like that and he was right.' But anyone can figure it out. So what are they doing?"

BRENDA: "Maybe a lack of self-confidence? Or laziness? People want someone to tell them how to do a thing instead of figuring it out for themselves. If nothing else, if it doesn't work it's not their own fault."

ME: "That's not what I'm talking about. You see, the 1st guy is giving the 2nd guy credit he didn/t earn because anyone can figure it out."

BRENDA; "Clan loyalty? If you give credit for people helping you they'll like you more, and be more willing to help in the future? I really don't know. It does seem pretty crazy."

ME: "Yeah. pretty crazy"

BRENDA: "All of what we do, as humans, pretty much comes down to survival instincts. It must have something to do with that - though it seems extremely illogical."

ME: "What we do is cope with the Stupids' as best we can."

BRENDA: "Which is how we survive."

ME: "Yeah."

BRENDA: "What seems even crazier to me is how no matter how despicable, evil, mean and ugly a person is, once they die, if you go to their funeral, everyone talks as though they were a saint. Why?"

ME:"People lie about almost everything. I don't knno why. They seem to be born like that. Writers and actors create a special world for peope and then they live in it, removed from reality. The literaries are completely insane. But you can't tell them that. They wouldn't know what you were talking about."

BRENDA; "I've attended funerals where I was actually quite shocked. Not only was the evil nature of the deceased forgotten, but wild stories of their goodness were pulled out of thin air. I guess I should be grateful that if my father dies I won't be invited to his funeral. I don't think I could remain silent while people praised him."

ME; "They'd put you in the nuthouse if you did that.."

BRENDA; "You're probably right, but all those people who lie through their smiling teeth are the ones who deserve to be in the nuthouse."

ME: "Well, yeah. But saying it doesn't make it happen. The nuts are in charge of everything. They're not going to put themselves in a nuthouse. They don't even know they're nuts. They think we're nuts."

BRENDA; "That's a given. Which is why avoidance of these types of situations is my best defense."

ME: "I know. That's what I said."

BRENDA: "It's like going to a wedding of two people that you really don't think should be together. 'Speak now or forever hold your peace.' So you either don't go, or you smile and hope it will actually work out for them."

ME; "Do you think most people have gruesome parents? They hide it, if they do, because they usually say good things about them. It's hard to believe inine were exceptional."

BRENDA: "That's something I'd be interested in knowing. I don't think horrible parents are a rare thing, but I'd like to believe that mine aren't the 'norm' either. I think there must be a lot of good parents out there - maybe half?"

ME: "Yeah, maybe."

BRENDA: "We just had the misfortune of falling into the wrong half."

ME: "Yeah."

BRENDA: "I've read that abused children often continue the cycle - probably because that's all they know. Whatever you grow up with you think of as 'normal.' But I hated it too much, I wanted life to be different. Since I couldn't change my life as a child I instead became very determined to do much differently as a mother. I was determined that the abuse stopped with me."

ME:"That's nice. I'm nice to my pets."

BRENDA; "That's actually important. Too many people are abusive to animals, too. It shows you are compassionate."

ME;"They're my Pals."

BRENDA: "I love animals. And animals generally love me. They're very non-judgmental. I appreciate that."

ME: "They're good company too."

BRENDA;"Yes they are, and some are very intelligent - apparently more so than some humans I know."

ME: "That's very true."

BRENDA: "Have you always had animals?"

ME; "No, not always."

BRENDA: "I've always wanted to own property and have animals. I'd love to have horses some day. Probably not ever going to happen for me, but a girl can dream."

ME: "Sure."

BRENDA;"Someday I'll have enough property to have gardens, animals and all sorts of things. I love growing things."

ME;"Yeah."

BRENDA; "Have you ever had a garden?"

ME: "Yeah, a flower garden and a vegetable garden but not now. Bulbs grow better than seeds."

BRENDA: "Flowers, vegetables and herbs - love them all. But you're right, bulbs are easy-peasy."

ME: "Yeah."

BRENDA: "When I was a child I loved the color yellow, and I loved daffodils, but we couldn't afford to buy bulbs."

The sever returns, retrieves our empty plates and leaves.

ME: "It's nice to Love."

BRENDA: "Having grown up in a Mormon lifestyle - fundamentalist, yes, but still Mormon - I find these Bundy guys disturbing and whacko. What are your thoughts on it?"

ME: "I never heard of the Bundys' and don't pay any attention to religious types anyway."

BRENDA; "Some of them, with their buddies, are armed and have taken over a federal building in Oregon. Because God told them to."

ME; "Well, if God said it, they'll have to do it."

BRENDA; "Oh, they are."

ME: "I suppose they'll be a disturbing and wacko end of the story that satisfies almost everyone."

BRENDA; "That's the way it usually goes."

ME; "Yeah."

BRENDA; "Well, it was nice seeing you again, but I'm afraid I have to go - I have an appointment to get to. Maybe we'll run into each other again sometime."

ME: "Yeah, it was nice seeing you again. Have a nice evening."

BREDA: "You too. Goodbye."

ME: "Goodnight"

She gets up and leaves.

It's nighttime, a few weeks later. I'm back at the diner and sitting in a booth. Brenda walks in and sits down opposite me.

BRENDA; "Hi."

ME: "Yeah, hi. Did you ever think about how stupid people are who talk about 'Character Building'? What's character building? Or character? People are just people. Who's to say someone has it or not?"

BRENDA: "To my understanding character can be changed, or 'built' and is different from personality. Character is more how you look at and treat others. But maybe my understanding is incorrect."

ME: "Look at and treat others? How does that work?"

BRENDA; "Changing prejudices and biases. Looking at others as our fellow humans and treating each other with respect."

ME: "I think that's just being Fair. I wouldn't apply the words 'character' or 'respect.' You have kids. Were you busy building their character and teaching them to respect others?"

BRENDA; "I feel like a lot of my time, as a mom, was spent teaching my kids and in so-called building character. I don't think it can just be left to chance, nor does it come naturally. I guided their perception of others and how I expected them to treat others. I taught them respect by showing them respect, and have taught them respect is earned not demanded."

ME: "I think 'fairness' comes naturally or it doesn't come at all. The subject of respect leaves me with a blank feeling. What is it? How do you earn it? Maybe you just imagined you taught your kids character and respect. My point is, it's not a real thing. It could be a pretended thing."

BRENDA: "I don't think it's pretend. I think it's very real. I spent years living around people who left their kids to basically raise themselves and there was a definite difference. I don't believe it comes naturally, though I'm sure some people naturally are more caring."

ME: "I don't know how you even remember what you said to them. I can't remember anything at all I talked about. I think you just imagined you said those things to them. Moms imagine they've talking to their kids about 'Caring' when really they're talking to the neihbors about something else rntirely. That's Moms for you."

BRENDA: "Maybe some people wouldn't remember, but raising my kids was my whole focus. My situation was definitely unique, but I talked to my kids about kindness, community, responsibility, and so forth. I used experiences of life to draw attention to social justice issues and personal responsibility."

A server comes over and asks Brenda if she's ready to order.

(To the server) "Yes, I'll have a Cobb salad and a Coke. Thanks you."

ME: (To the server) "Give me 2 cheesburgers, a double order of fries, with gravy, and a coke. Thanks."

The server pours our cokes and leaves.

(To Brenda) "I've seen people pretend to care. They don't care about anything really important though. They don't care about getting rid of our nuclear weapons, demilitarizing or ending the Drug War."

BRENDA: "People *do* care. But too often the ones who have power to do things like get rid of nuclear weapons are too influenced by greed and power. They benefit from war, and know they won't have to fight. Those issues are about corruption, greed and a near complete lack of compassion and empathy for others."

ME: "I have to disagree. If people cared the representatives would carry it out. I don't believe they want war or are motivated by greed and power. The problem is people really want those things I spoke of."

BRENDA: "What possible reason would there be for common, everyday people to actually *want* nuclear weapons around? The politicians make money off those deals, gain power, sometimes even own the companies that manufacture weapons, so they have an interest in keeping them around. For common citizens it's just a foreboding of war.
"Wars are generally fought for one of two reasons: because of differing religious beliefs, or to keep/gain control of resources (money). But those resources, that money, that power doesn't benefit the average citizen. Our children are sent to fight, kill other people's children and die in war as pawns of the rich. So why in hell would any average person want nuclear weapons and such to exist?"

ME: "Well, because they're crazy. Something you didn't include in you calculations. But I did."

"Talking"

Wednesday, November 11, 2015

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